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So this might need quite a bit of copy-pasting from the chapter 171 discussion, but the primary role of this thread (for now) is the mysteries behind Treasure Island, Medusa, and Why-man. 

@angellucy probably best to switch over with the expansion on the mystery of how a second, or maybe even third source of revived humans is also part of the discussion now.

Thank you @seiryu, for making this thread. It would be nice to have more participants in following discussions and theories, the themes you've mentioned are interesting to discuss after all!


(My last read manga chapter was 172)

Hmm, how to start... I will pick up from our last post in the thread of Dr. Stone, it was manga chapter 171. I'm going to talk only about one of the themes for now mostly... after writing it, it turned out to be quite an enourmous text, so other themes may come later.

I use Dr. Stone wiki and manga itself to confirm my following theory quite often, so it can seem sometimes as a summary of the story at first glance. But I use these facts to build the whole picture (somehow), hopefully it's at least a bit interesting :D

The theme:
Who are the people living on Treasure Island, what is their origin?
The primary origin of people from Treasure Island was already hinted in manga and actually even in anime. To be more specific, check out the chapter 59 of manga or the last episode of the 1st season of anime (time capsule part). In the mentioned part of the story Senku discovered what is the origin of gravestones of Ishigami village's ancestors (such as Byakuya's gravestone), these gravestones are placed near Ishigami village, in Japan. There was shown that Byakuya's gravestone wasn't just a stone, but a glass record perserved in concrete (side info - concrete was used for preservation even on Treasure Island in the "treasure chest"). Senku realized this fact thanks to the encrypted message of his father (Gen solved this cypher), which was handed over through many generations of Ishigami people, in the Hundered stories, to be even more specific - in the 100th one of a name: Ishigami Senku. Why am I meantioning the gravestones? Don't worry, I'm getting to it - Senku in this chapter also said, the gravestones were the only things taken from their original home, home where their (Ishigami people's) ancestors were living in the past. The gravestones were meant to be a momento, something sacret to the Ishigami people and placed near the village, in the center of the current Ishigami graveyeard. This comment actually confirms that Byakuya didn't make it to Japan, or rather, he didn't die in Japan where his gravestone is currently put, but died somewhere else.

And because of that I believe Byakuya died on Treasure Island and Treasure Island is the origin of the first Ishigami people. That's why - people living on Treasure Island could be related to Byakuya and other astronauts. To confirm this statement, you can check out chapter 45. There is told the story of Byakuya in basic outlines. You can notice there is the black round thing in some panels, it's a space shuttle Soyuz they used to travel from space station to Earth. They arrived in water first, but later manged to bring the shuttle ashore on Treasure Island and use it in various situations (like making the record). This shuttle was actually mentioned in chapter 101 too and it was named "Treasure chest" by Senku, because it should have contained various minerals, especially platinum Senku needed for the Revival fluid. It was an important info mentioned in the Hundered stories (or rather it was passed through Ruri, the story didn't have a name or number).

Another lead (indicating that people living in Ishigami village migrated there from Treasure Island) was the name of Soyuz, the villager of Ishigami village - he wasn't named after any mineral as others were, but actually after the shuttle itself. Because of Soyuz's marvellous memory, Senku and others could find the Treasure Island (to get the platinum). This and prior paragraph actually explaines why Treasure Island is named "treasure", it's because of this shuttle Soyuz that contains various minerals (treasures) Byakuya was gathering all of his life. I will point out now some of other leads indicating Treasure Island was the place, where space team lived.... and died. (now I don't count the 2 members who left for medicines and never came back)

The leads are:
- The shuttle is shown for example in chapter 115, where Byakuya is already very old, but still gathers minerals. Byakuya said that he will put minerals in this "round thing" and in the background of one panel is shown the shuttle. He was gathering minerals in glass bottles and one of them is shown later in the Treasure Island arc.
- During this arc, Kohaku had a mission to brake into the treasure chest (Soyuz) in the center of the island, where platinum should have been stored and steal it. She was using the quiet detonation technique to accomplish such a mission and when she broke through the concrete inside Soyuz, she found the glass bottle with sand-like substance Byakuya used to gather, containing the platinum. This is the bottle I mentioned in the previous note.
- Plus this "concrete technique" of preservation was actually mentioned when Senku was talking about "gravestones", he actually found the record made from glass bottle also in the concrete shell (in the time capsule), and back then it was discovered in Ishigami village.

So with these facts there is a great possibility people living on Treasure Island are descendants of Byakuya and others, at least the primary origin could be explained so, and they founded the Petrification Kingdom. But there is a huge question mark - why all of them are black-haired but Ishigami people mostly blond? Most of the space team were blond people, one had dark brown hairs (Connie), Byakuya actually white, even tho being a Japanese, who tend to have brown, black hair. Plus people on Treasure Island behaved "caveman-like", they didn't know much about Ishigami founder, any technology or any of his stories/legacy (at least it wasn't told so). Now that brings us some new possibilites...

We should take note of the fact that Treasure Island is near Japan - it was mentioned in manga and you can check it in Dr. Stone wiki too, so it wouldn't be surprising, if some descendants of the space team made boats to travel the distance to the place, where Ishigami village is situated in the present, and that is in Japan as I've mentioned before. (Ishigami people are said to be great sailors after all.) But considering the diverse appearence of both branches of these descendants (one stayed on the Island, one traveled to Japan), I believe the Treasure Island might have been populated by other imigrants who were revived in Japan, in similar way as Senku was or by other way we're not aware of. It would have to happen quite a long time ago, because the technology of Treasure Island wasn't advanced at all and people didn't know about technology (I don't count Medusa, because of the explanation in Matsukaze's story - they didn't know about Medusa before its attack and that was only few hundreds years ago).
People on Treasure Island could be also a mix, because of their different culture. But that could be also explained by the isolation (life on the island brings limits to the actual developement) and of course its rule does a lot too. There could be just one usurper, dictator who would order to wipe any reminder of the ancestors and make new ones, to strenghten his rule by "uncovering the real ancestors" or something like that, building the tribe's pride and new law, customs.
To take this mixing from the "blond" point of view, taking note of a similarity with the space team. There actually were people who were very similar to people from Ishigami village. Matsukaze was working for Master, who was a spitting image of Ginro, Ishigami villager. True, it was few hundreds years ago, but we didn't see all of the people living on Treasure Island, so we can't tell, if all of them are black haired or not. I even believe many of the petrified people around the Treasure Island might be the descendants of Byakuya and others and some of them will know about Ishigami branch, or at least part of the prior petrified ones will. When we return to Soyuz, who is trying to fulfill the de-petrificating mission right now on Treasure Island, we will surelly see things more clearly.

Well, I should wrap it up, it could still be discussed further, but I will leave it for some other time.

I will go a bit side-track and react to a part of the mentioned post of yours, Seiryu, where you said Medusa that was used on Treasure Island by Ibara worked on different basis than the Medusas Matsukaze was talking about, and which he destroyed back then. It can't be said for certain (that it's working differently) - Matsukaze stated himself he was not sure if there was a voice order or not or if someone found the function by testing, that's why even we can't tell surelly that the only Medusa Matsukaze didn't destroy, wasn't the one Ibara later used. It would be actually logical, if it was the same one, because Matsukaze's people (or rather his enemies) ordered Medusas with their voices, so did Ibara.

And when there was a mention of Ibara and Why-man. I'm still not sure, if Ibara had any instructions actually, I somehow still suspect him stealing the device after he found out its function and abusing its power for his well being rather than him achieving some sort of instructions or co-working with Why-man. Only time will tell tho...

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:09 am

It would be nice to have more participants in following discussions and theories, the themes you've mentioned are interesting to discuss after all!

Yes, hopefully so! There's sooooooo many interesting tangents to go on, and we only have the introductory parts/teasers.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:09 am

So with these facts there is a great possibility people living on Treasure Island are descendants of Byakuya and others, at least the primary origin could be explained so, and they founded the Petrification Kingdom. But there is a huge question mark - why all of them are black-haired but Ishigami people mostly blond? Most of the space team were blond people, one had dark brown hairs (Connie), Byakuya actually white, even tho being a Japanese, who tend to have brown, black hair. Plus people on Treasure Island behaved "caveman-like", they didn't know much about Ishigami founder, any technology or any of his stories/legacy (at least it wasn't told so). Now that brings us some new possibilites...

Everything prior to this is 100% accurate. The biggest aspect is the platinum and the biggest "miracle" of Byakuya falling forward rather than falling backwards. The bottle HAD to be pointing upstream or the water flow would wash all of it out. The slight mystery is that none of the kids recognize Byakuya or even understand what he is doing, but someone figures out to gather the bottle and perform the concrete preservation. Byakuya was among the oldest of the astronauts, so the youngest could have followed through I guess (I'm blanking on the ages, but maybe I'm just biased of Byakuya's "young at heart", youthful appearance). Plus, it seems like Byakuya lived well past the expected age for lack of technology.

I think I'm taking the One Piece genetics bias, but the blonde vs. caveman appearance vs. Matsukaze's master is the "twist" for me. Scientifically, it is not possible to have all that much genetic variation in 1-2 generations. At most maybe we have a third generation when Byakuya passes, but the close proximity is why there shouldn't be huge environmental influences to create two different subspecies.

The biggest mystery is why Matsukaze has LEGITIMATE Japanese kimono and housing designs. How did the Japanese culture get revived? Byakuya is the only Japanese astronaut...and he does nothing other than pass on the tales as far as we know. He is busy looking for rare elements to build new things.

I am going to operate that the 1, 2, or 3 generations of kids that are born during Byakuya's life span allow for enough kids that some decide to stay behind on Treasure Island, and some go to Japan to form Ishigami Village. I'm going to push back on the genetic variation of Treasure Island. Unless I'm completely misremembering, aren't the current generation almost exclusively this caveman appearance? The most variation is Mozu and Kirisame (that comes to mind). The genetic variation of Matsukaze and his master is this "third source" of revived humans. A few hundred years is not enough time to cause the subspecies/appearance differences. Plus, the background and clothes of Matsukaze is another huge mystery. This almost has to be something separate.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:09 am

I believe the Treasure Island might have been populated by other imigrants who were revived in Japan, in similar way as Senku was or by other way we're not aware of.

I guess we'll wait and see how common this magical combination of bats and Y and Z (I forget the other two ingredients). I'm super biased to not want revived humans across the world. By the necessity of staying mentally active the entire time without the perfect revival fluid (the perfect revival fluid was implied to be a very unique environment), only smart people that get the attention of Why-man get revived. Plus, they have to be smart to be able to successfully travel anyway.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:09 am

Matsukaze stated himself he was not sure if there was a voice order or not or if someone found the function by testing,

Unless there is miniature speakers built into all of the Matsukaze Medusas, he should have been able to hear the voice activation commands. There is only one option for the same mechanics, and that is for each Medusa to have a third part of a speaker. I'm biased to think it is a completely different design because a speaker can be programmed to easily be height triggered. We see the Matsukaze Medusas activating randomly. There was astronomically lower accuracy and control. So astronomically less science was applied (it was something that was not made on earth, but probably made on the moon).

The different Medusa mechanics make the Ibara and Why-man connection/possibilities completely different. I am biased to think that Ibara is not smart enough to figure out Medusa on his own!

@seiryu
Anyone can be revived naturally by chance while staying mentally active, as long as they have a goal which is important to them and are in the suitable enviroment, it is possible. They don't have to be smart or anything to catch Why-man's eyes and be revived by him. Why would Why-man even do such a philantropic action? Whole American team was revived naturally actually, even common American citezens - Max, Carlos, Luna (at least that's how it looked for now), because they had very deep desires, goals, to stay active such a long time.
That's why I don't think Revival fluid has to be necessarily prepared by humans (aliens) for all individuals, revival can happen from natural causes in the right environment. Not saying this "twist" will be used in Dr. Stone, not really, just pointing out that everything is possible and shouldn't be dismissed completely or underestimated. That's like saying "Earth is flat, because it's the truth" or because "everyone says/everything indicates so", but such a thing was believed only because people didn't have enough information to prove it's different. That's why I try to take account of every possible outcome (no matter how little info we actually have), the variability brings me joy and energy for further research making too :)

In my theory I said the primary (the starting) origin of Treasure Island people is from Byakuya's team, because manga says so already. But I added a but, what followed was - because their appearences and culture are so different from Byakuya's and his team's, there have to be some imigration (can be in waves). Why are they different in such a large scale? Thousands of years is a long enough time (to revive, to develop, to travel, to mix people). And why I mentioned Japan specifically? Because it's the nearest country to the island (to check out some tivia, Treasure island is probably even one of the real life Japanese islands). And from Matsukaze's stories, it looked like the people on Treasure Island were used to Japanese customs, clothing, talking, at least few hundereds years ago that is. That's why I believe even "just" some adventureous, skillful and brave people could travel mainly from Japan, because it's the most likely option. But this option doesn't have to be the only one, there could be some amazing sailors, who would manage such a trip from other countries, like people from Oceania (which is the place Senku still hasn't visited yet, but plans to).
I think you underestimate people a bit, being smart is not that uncommon to be such a rare thing (I'm not talking about prodigies only), and people actually didn't have to be smart to get revived, just staying active was enough - as I've said in the previous paragraph.

Medusa is quite a complex problem to be solved. We still know very little, so the "number of types" of Medusas can be stated now only in guesses with many buts. The context implies the only Medusa that Matsukaze didn't break might be the one Ibara used. But it's not certain, because it was said only from Matsukaze's point of view and we know nothing about what happened those hundreds of years between the present and Matsukaze's time.
I'm a bit sceptic to think Medusa will be of alien origin. People travel to space, so why not to Moon.... Or rather - the substance is miraculous and made especially for the series, so it sounds incredible/alien in a way... but in my opinion it will be explained in a scientific way, at least in basics, and it's quite possible the whole thing is just some big experiment of a larger scale made by a human/a group of humans. Tho having the final villain - alien - would be thrilling too :3

Oooh but I never said Ibara couldn't work it out himself, I just don't think he worked with Why-man in any way before. And if Ibara was ever in contact with Why-man in the past, I just don't think instructions were given to him from Why-man, rather Ibara picked up the principle by watching/listening to Why-man/underlings. I don't even believe Ibara will have some very important role in the future (but only future twists will tell ofc). He was smart/sly enough to abuse Medusa's power and be the villain in one arc, yes. But I think that was rather for the thrill at that time, so that Senku would have to use his brain and have some worthy opponent. Ibara turning to stone is a dot of his current story (that is, if there won't be some major twist on Treasure Island in the future - Soyuz plans to revive all people after all, some might even take it too literally :D).

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

Anyone can be revived naturally by chance while staying mentally active, as long as they have a goal which is important to them and are in the suitable enviroment, it is possible. They don't have to be smart or anything to catch Why-man's eyes and be revived by him. Why would Why-man even do such a philantropic action? Whole American team was revived naturally actually, even common American citezens - Max, Carlos, Luna (at least that's how it looked for now), because they had very deep desires, goals, to stay active such a long time.

Wait, even the incomplete revival fluid in America was still a "unique" situation. So I have to clarify that no, not anyone can be revived. The incomplete revival fluid is the proof. Xeno's revival fluid only works on people that are still mentally active (i.e. smart => even the not so smart American side have memories of smart people so it is the same as a person with potential that never gets to go to school or chooses to never pay attention).

Because of this piece, only smart people should be at most be allowed to revive. Senku/Taiju too only had the incomplete revival fluid hit them. This is why Inagaki had to have Taiju worrying about Yuzuriha the whole time. Senku discovers the full revival fluid and off the top of my head, Xeno only uses 2 of the 3 ingredients.

Why-man is doing the opposite. He is re-petrifying people based on Matsukaze's back story. The combination of this and the mechanics of people naturally reviving means that only smart people get revived and chances are they start to develop something that can be tracked by space, and Why-man sends a little space rocket to petrify them again. Since they are in a different place, they do not revive again.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

That's why I don't think Revival fluid has to be necessarily prepared by humans (aliens) for all individuals, revival can happen from natural causes in the right environment. Not saying this "twist" will be used in Dr. Stone, not really, just pointing out that everything is possible and shouldn't be dismissed completely or underestimated. That's like saying "Earth is flat, because it's the truth" or because "everyone says/everything indicates so", but such a thing was believed only because people didn't have enough information to prove it's different. That's why I try to take account of every possible outcome (no matter how little info we actually have), the variability brings me joy and energy for further research making too :)

And that's the "not fun" part of literary perfection...one tiny detail kills off entire tangents of ideas and discussions. This is why I have the "asshole"/thread killer reputation.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

But I added a but, what followed was - because their appearences and culture are so different from Byakuya's and his team's, there have to be some imigration (can be in waves). Why are they different in such a large scale?

I think I have to make it clearer, I'm not disagreeing with the entirety of the post. The aspect of a few hundred years completely changing from "traditional Japanese" to this "caveman" is inaccurate scientifically. There has to be at least one twist, and it has to be a big one. I only question how this sudden change occurred since it cannot occur with normal genetics. Everything else fits, and I agreed that if we extend Byakuya's lifespan (he looks super old, and especially for an Asian) there are potentially enough new generations to have a village big enough to split in two. If it was only one new generation, they all had to move to Japan to survive. The kids not recognizing who Byakuya was or knowing the science behind what he's doing is the proof of the village expanding past direct influence of the astronauts.

The big mystery is how true Japanese culture is on Treasure Island. And how the appearances suddenly shifted after Matsukaze's point in history. I am already 100% agreement on all other aspects. I forgot that I need to say that in conversations, which is why I use the number to make it stand out.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

That's why I believe even "just" some adventureous, skillful and brave people could travel mainly from Japan, because it's the most likely option. But this option doesn't have to be the only one, there could be some amazing sailors, who would manage such a trip from other countries, like people from Oceania (which is the place Senku still hasn't visited yet, but plans to).

Oh...I think I'm getting it now...Assuming we have clarification on how reviving occurs, the cultural exchange is impossible. Or if it did happen, it was successfully wiped out by Why-man's space based attack (which is why Medusa has different mechanics in at least how it is being deployed as a weapon). So yes, I agree now that natural revivals of mentally active people would explain the Japanese cultural exchange. But once they develop civilization, they become detectable from space and Why-man now petrifies them again. Unless they are lucky to go back to the cave with bats and the right other environmental situations, they will never get revived until Senku comes along. This is why other living humans should be extremely unlikely. Why-man is guaranteed to be able to detect them, and send mine-like Medusa to petrify them. This is why the overkill aspect is used to decrease the chances of not getting re-petrified.

I hope this clarifies why the skills you are referencing cannot be around now. Why-man has to be able to create materials from the moon base. Survival for this long is impossible if not (even with petrification/freezing himself).

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

Medusa is quite a complex problem to be solved. We still know very little, so the "number of types" of Medusas can be stated now only in guesses with many buts. The context implies the only Medusa that Matsukaze didn't break might be the one Ibara used. But it's not certain, because it was said only from Matsukaze's point of view and we know nothing about what happened those hundreds of years between the present and Matsukaze's time.

All I'm saying is that there is clearly different "attack methods" being used. Because the weapon is being applied differently, there has to be differences with it. All of these are unknown and will stay unknown, but the difference is 100% guaranteed. If it was possible, Why-man would just do another world wide attack. I am not arguing against the Ibara/Matsukaze aspect. It has to be the one "different" Medusa though. It is a waste of resources to have all of them be Ibara-level (energy/charging is probably the most valuable resource to Why-man => we already see what is done for water through Rei).

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

I'm a bit sceptic to think Medusa will be of alien origin. People travel to space, so why not to Moon.... Or rather - the substance is miraculous and made especially for the series, so it sounds incredible/alien in a way... but in my opinion it will be explained in a scientific way, at least in basics, and it's quite possible the whole thing is just some big experiment of a larger scale made by a human/a group of humans. Tho having the final villain - alien - would be thrilling too :3

I think I need to clarify that although I say "alien level" this is not implying aliens. A more appropriate term is "manga exaggeration". We need "manga magic" to have the plot. I love that everything except this is real life levels of science and I expect this all the way up to travelling into space, if not even the fight against Why-man/the conclusion of the series.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:39 pm

Oooh but I never said Ibara couldn't work it out himself, I just don't think he worked with Why-man in any way before. And if Ibara was ever in contact with Why-man in the past, I just don't think instructions were given to him from Why-man, rather Ibara picked up the principle by watching/listening to Why-man/underlings.

The literal science of it is the infrequency of stating a distance and a time in the same sentence. There is close to a zero percent chance of success by trial and error. So the external factor for Ibara's Medusa is why I'm very biased to some sort of external interference. And with the top part, context implies it almost exclusively can only be Why-man. This is definitely a huge tangent on the "killing" of fun discussions, but the foundational mechanics of who can get revived and why has been clearly established. Because it is the foundation/beginning of the series, it is causing a negative chain reaction. I always see it as my job to clarify these things because it is always for the better in the long run.

I think I should be good at remembering to say I 100% agree with things, but just in case, if I am not quoting it I already agree or think it got addressed elsewhere.

So because of the limitations, it does make the caveman appearance a huge mystery to me. I'm thinking that you are on to something with Why-man's computer missing civilization for Japan since that would directly explain the Matsukaze aspect. It would guarantee that Why-man is overkilling any sign of human life on the earth since then though.

Double post for good reasons. @angellucy we have a perfect partner to join us! Yuz is back from OPF and he's got the same "overanalytical" at times trait (at least you guys know how to turn it off and I don't). But tagging him @Yuuzume since this thread should be tons and tons of fun. Especially once the 1 million people in America get revived. "All hell breaks loose" (in a good way) to theorize and discuss once that process starts. Even the petrification origin before this is going to be fun to discuss.

I will be busy probably quite soon, first exams are approaching, but when I have some time, I'll join for sure, glad we have another Dr. Stone nakama :)

angellucy wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:37 am

I will be busy probably quite soon, first exams are approaching, but when I have some time, I'll join for sure, glad we have another Dr. Stone nakama :)

Good luck with all of your exams! Fun breaks are always needed too.

@seiryu I finally read through your final theory reply in here :D The next text is my reply to the prior post only slightly tho, it's rather my new musing ..

Well, we talked about various mechanism of Medusa, so I thought why not talk about various Revival fluids and its mechanisms. We know two ways +you've mentioned that Xeno had fluid too, but that was just nitric acid, so he could revive only active ppl. To talk about the ways we "know" about: One is practically syntetic (pure chemistry) and can revive anyone, even people who didn't stay mentally active. The other is actually natural one and doesn't work without nerve impulses of brain of active people. You were saying that Why-man would have to know, where people are revived and he would re-petrify them again (as was mentiond in Matsukaze's story). And he would do it with every possible civilization that would grow. But I didn't mean great groups, just several, dozens ppl maybe would be enough to enrich the culture on Treasure Island. Why was Treasure Island attacked by Why-man so late then? I suspect it might be resources problem on Why-man's part + he probably didn't know about it for quite some time (was petrified himself) and he naively thought he has managed to petrify them all.... (at least for a long time)
But we know nothing about any other petrification except of the Treasure Island attack. So how can we know so certainly that Why-man did re-petrification frequently since the attack in Matsukaze's story? How can Why-man control the whole world so easily? Yes, he's probably quite clever by creating Medusa and has enourmous hartred that's quite sufficient to fulfill his goal, but I believe Why-man has limits too. I mean, he didn't completelly petrify Treasure Island with Matsukaze, he just blindly threw a pile of Medusas on the island. That, as it is, looks like it was a bit of a random action. Sure, it was aimed on one island as it seems, but it didn't petrify all of its inhabitans. Yet we know that the mighy Why-man is well-known for "the whole-world petrification", which sounds pretty absolute, right? ~whole-world~ But booom, he didn't count with the existance of the astronauts. His first miscalculation maybe? ... That's why I don't think Why-man controls the whole Earth and re-petrify every human in every possible civilisation that might arise again, because "he's only human" and humans do mistakes + he might have resources problem as you've mentioned in Medusas paragraph. So some people, who depetrified naturally (those active ones), or in a way we don't know, might be still hidden from Why-man's sight and living happily. Doesn't have to be in big numbers tho. They might have been attacked by Why-man similarly like Treasure Island, but survived.

You've said that attacking Treasure Island with the same-working Medusas as Ibara's Medusa would be a waste of resources that Why-man gets from Moon. But what if Why-man was just desperate enough to petrify humans once for all (thinking Treasure Island is the last drop)? Plus we don't know if other Medusas on Treasure Island (the destroyed ones) were or weren't rechargable. Man, we don't even know if Ibara's Medusa is rechargable even now (I didn't read the last chapters tho). But we do know from Mtsukaze that the past Medusas were destroyed by him and that they worked with "time, range" order. So did Ibara's. That's why I believe Ibara's Medusa might work in a same way like those which were destroyed.

Another question has emerged. How could Xeno be depetrified with others nearly simultaneously? Was it really just from natural cause as it was in the case of Taiju and Senku I wonder... It was shown, that it was so, but coincidence is just too great. But again, who would do such a thing and why.
btw: Xeno didn't know anything about perfect Revival fluid, only that nitric acid revives active people before Senku came. I thought that perfect Revival fluid might be actually a great discovery of Senku and Why-man might use for saving resources just nitric acid as Xeno did. (not saying Xeno knows Why-man, just that Senku is kinda special in this point of view)

Anyway to sum the prior thoughts up - even tho Why-man surelly has some great techniques to find the revived people, it's nothing absolute -> Treasure Island wasn't petrified whole after all. And there could be still some individuals or small groups, who could stay hidden from Why-man's tracking, if he can track them even that is. So I still believe natural depetrification is possible and Ibara's Medusa may really be the same as those that were thrown on Treasure Island.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:06 am

Well, we talked about various mechanism of Medusa, so I thought why not talk about various Revival fluids and its mechanisms. We know two ways +you've mentioned that Xeno had fluid too, but that was just nitric acid, so he could revive only active ppl. To talk about the ways we "know" about: One is practically syntetic (pure chemistry) and can revive anyone, even people who didn't stay mentally active. The other is actually natural one and doesn't work without nerve impulses of brain of active people. You were saying that Why-man would have to know, where people are revived and he would re-petrify them again (as was mentiond in Matsukaze's story). And he would do it with every possible civilization that would grow. But I didn't mean great groups, just several, dozens ppl maybe would be enough to enrich the culture on Treasure Island. Why was Treasure Island attacked by Why-man so late then? I suspect it might be resources problem on Why-man's part + he probably didn't know about it for quite some time (was petrified himself) and he naively thought he has managed to petrify them all.... (at least for a long time)

Yup, sounds like we agree on the two means of revival thus far.

Literally everything about Why-man is completely open ended. My writing style is going to read firm because I did nothing but write literary analysis essays through high school (I don't count college because I only needed one English class and it was easier than what I took in high school). I am always 100% open to other ideas, and I'm discussing because I want to hear them. So I would 100% agree that something had to have happened to Why-man or Matsukaze's civilization did not generate anything that could be picked up from space (they remained low-tech for quite a while).

Per what little we saw, there was no technology shown. Why-man could have satellites to just zoom in and see if heat signatures are people or animals. There definitely has to be a twist on the civilization expanding/why the second petrification attack happened when it did.

We seem to agree that it is the same person all these thousands of years later. Plus, I think resources aren't that big of a deal. Plant based products, yes. However, if the plan was to petrify the whole world, I would assume Why-man has a green house in the moon base. Rei showed us that water and alloys to make parts/additional Medusa weapons is possible (and something that can be programmed to do through a bunch of Rei-like robots).

angellucy wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:06 am

But we know nothing about any other petrification except of the Treasure Island attack. So how can we know so certainly that Why-man did re-petrification frequently since the attack in Matsukaze's story? How can Why-man control the whole world so easily? Yes, he's probably quite clever by creating Medusa and has enourmous hartred that's quite sufficient to fulfill his goal, but I believe Why-man has limits too. I mean, he didn't completelly petrify Treasure Island with Matsukaze, he just blindly threw a pile of Medusas on the island. That, as it is, looks like it was a bit of a random action. Sure, it was aimed on one island as it seems, but it didn't petrify all of its inhabitans. Yet we know that the mighy Why-man is well-known for "the whole-world petrification", which sounds pretty absolute, right? ~whole-world~ But booom, he didn't count with the existance of the astronauts. His first miscalculation maybe? ... That's why I don't think Why-man controls the whole Earth and re-petrify every human in every possible civilisation that might arise again, because "he's only human" and humans do mistakes + he might have resources problem as you've mentioned in Medusas paragraph. So some people, who depetrified naturally (those active ones), or in a way we don't know, might be still hidden from Why-man's sight and living happily. Doesn't have to be in big numbers tho. They might have been attacked by Why-man similarly like Treasure Island, but survived.

Inagaki and Bochi have characters go "all out". For example, how often do Senku, Xeno, Stan, or Tsukasa truly fail? Why-man is a "professional" so the best examples are Xeno and Stan. Why-man has a level of intelligence/science above them. This masterplan was executed perfectly. My bias is that it kills the story if there are perfect bat caves throughout the world (Senku is not unique). It doesn't mean this is absolutely going to happen.

I'm forgetting the chemistry, but there are at a minimum of two environmental/chemical compounds necessary. By plot armor, Senku and Xeno had these. Based on their history and the need for a pro scientist, Xeno has to be a part of the series. It becomes redundant to me to keep introducing people the same way. Oh, so speaking of which, something had to change because Why-man is not making any attempts to petrify Senku or Xeno's teams. Right off the bat, Why-man potentially can only make these "land mine" Medusa from the moon. With potentially just running speeds, this is possible to avoid. But either way, doing the same thing over and over makes it boring, so I don't want to see it happen. It could, and I'm not arguing against it. However, context does imply Why-man to be even better than the "best" people in the series thus far, which is the whole point that they have to "grow stronger" as the series continues.

Wait, I'm under the assumption Why-man successfully petrified everyone (Matsukaze's flashback). A few hundred years do not explain the shift from pure Japanese to the "cave man" appearances. It's only off the top of my head, but Matsukaze was only seeing his village members falling victim. His words imply he thought he was the only survivor. We differ on the twist that leads to Soyuz's village forming. Everything is wide open, so all options (even crazier ones) should almost all be valid. The existing breadcrumbs do slightly imply small stuff, so I'm going to be biased by that since the manga team is already showing they will connect everything.

Ah, so I think it is this direct: I'm biased to not want to see the "perfect situation" just happening over and over. It eventually makes Senku and Xeno "less special". Destiny/fate is always at least a part of stereotypical shounen series. I have no breadcrumbs to say it cannot happen, which is why I never say I think it cannot happen. I do think we should treat Why-man as the near perfect last boss. He's already above Xeno. Based on the series, strategic planning comes with scientific knowledge. The plot cannot exist without at least some "miscalculations". This also overlaps with Medusa mechanics because space appears to stop Medusa waves (it was impossible for the astronauts to get hit). So, I'm not saying I think it is impossible to have other people, I'm struggling to see how it is necessary/an integral part of the plot. If they aren't smart, they aren't helpful to the end goals. It is "less sexy" for sure, but Why-man's implied levels of skill imply it. And similarly, the plot just goes smoother if Senku is the one to revive these people. Because of the fast pace, only relevant people will be introduced. We shouldn't need any other scientists already.

angellucy wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:06 am

You've said that attacking Treasure Island with the same-working Medusas as Ibara's Medusa would be a waste of resources that Why-man gets from Moon. But what if Why-man was just desperate enough to petrify humans once for all (thinking Treasure Island is the last drop)? Plus we don't know if other Medusas on Treasure Island (the destroyed ones) were or weren't rechargable. Man, we don't even know if Ibara's Medusa is rechargable even now (I didn't read the last chapters tho). But we do know from Mtsukaze that the past Medusas were destroyed by him and that they worked with "time, range" order. So did Ibara's. That's why I believe Ibara's Medusa might work in a same way like those which were destroyed.

Wait, we no absolutely nothing about Matsukaze's Medusas. We only see him getting petrified and his actions to have the mark/scar. All of it is completely wide open. This is why resources is the limiting factor. Senku isn't leaving weapons/technology for Xeno's team to use. Why-man isn't going to be stupid enough to leave his best weapon available for his enemies to use. This is why a "one time use", "land mine" Medusa fits the best per my bias. It is a waste of resources to have more energy/resources put into each Medusa. If Why-man made all of them like Ibara's one, that's why he can't petrify anyone now. He used all of his resources up and is having to gather more resources since. This is illogical, which contradicts the near perfection of Why-man thus far. It is the "less sexy" situation, but there is some level of implied interaction by Why-man after Matsukaze's incident. The appearance change is the main and only breadcrumb for this. Hopefully there are multiple twists. Hopefully it's a blend of what we are discussing now (or something even better). The vast majority is wide open, and the only limiting factor is how and why the residents of Treasure Island went from pure Japanese (even culturally with the clothes and housing) to "cave man".

angellucy wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:06 am

Another question has emerged. How could Xeno be depetrified with others nearly simultaneously? Was it really just from natural cause as it was in the case of Taiju and Senku I wonder... It was shown, that it was so, but coincidence is just too great. But again, who would do such a thing and why.
btw: Xeno didn't know anything about perfect Revival fluid, only that nitric acid revives active people before Senku came. I thought that perfect Revival fluid might be actually a great discovery of Senku and Why-man might use for saving resources just nitric acid as Xeno did. (not saying Xeno knows Why-man, just that Senku is kinda special in this point of view)

This was explained, but the fast pace makes it hard to pick up. Xeno's perfect situation is even better than Senku's. There is a hill so the nitric acid worked its way down to eventually depetrify everyone. Because they were all revived based on closest to the top of the hill, they put a sign up to guide the ones downhill. Chelsea couldn't read it so she's the only one to go the wrong direction. I'm rusty since it's been a while, but didn't Senku have to move Taiju and or Yuzuriha?

So the Xeno side was over a long period of time, and it is purely gravity related. So yes, the nitric acid side alone does make sense, but they have to be smart people (everyone that is mentally active is smart and skilled at one thing => we have not seen the what the blonde teen from the Luna fanclub can do at a "professional level"). I would be lying if I said I want to see the entire rest of the series with only people revived by the alliance (as it expands). All I am saying is that I think it is "in the middle" where it is only some key/major characters (probably some natural allies and some enemies (Chelsea and Xeno).

It isn't the "fun discussions" but the twist on the cave man appearance is limiting options/creates the need for an additional twist. That's all I'm saying. Theorizing on forced cultural changes could easily read the wrong way, so I have purposefully avoided that. I see that I should have at least mentioned that "XYZ twist" is missing to create the connectivity of the situation you are presenting.