Luffy's New Power Up to Defeat Kaidou...and Potentially Even Big Mom

Got a cool One Piece Theory? Or even an uncool one? Post it here!

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Kaijinmaru
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An interesting theory, I have a slightly different take on it, we'll see what you all think of that. What if we treated "The voice of all things" as something completely independant to Haki.

Examples:

Enel and his priests could "hear" people, in some combination of observation haki and something else entirely. Observation haki hasn't been shown to be able to hear something far away and unconnected to you directly.

Sea kings - The enormous sea kings that Roger, Luffy, Oden, and others heard they were unable to communicate back with. At that point both Oden and Roger had a high level of haki usage yet they were still unable to communicate back to the sea kings. They have often said that they are waiting to be given a direction or command, I am assuming that this means they cannot hear others as well.

Shirahoshi - She has been shown to have the ability to talk to those who speak through the "Voice of all things" but she cannot hear them, another one way application of this ability.

Going Merry - She seemed to be able to speak with them through the spirit of the ship and the voice of all things, but it was never confirmed that she could hear them back. I am going to assume for the sake of this moving forward (and my emotional stability) that Merry could at least hear Luffy.

WIth those examples in mind there is only one character in all of One Piece that has shown the ability to not only hear, but also to be able to communicate to others through "the voice of all things". Luffy.

What a massive thing this would be if Luffy is the conduit that can bridge the gap and not only hear the sea kings, but talk with Shirahoshi and tell her exactly what and why they need direction. If he could broadcast his voice over such a distance into Onigashima from the ocean itself how far could he speak to not just an island, but a nation, and eventually, maybe even everyone who can hear it.

I take this as a sign of something further to come with Luffy being the two way street that both the truth of the world and that communication between those that have stayed silent and isolated for hundreds of years will be able to utilize to have their voice heard by the world again.


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seiryu
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Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
In my defense,I distinctly remember you agreeing to the Xebec aspect in the comment section of Marco's theory. To quote a part of it:
seiryu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:08 am
Glad we are in full agreement, and in regards to this theory as well. The only aspect did not fit prior to the recent discussions/expansions (overlapping/combining different theories), was how the super young Teach comes up with this perfect plan. If Xebec is in Teach, all of this, and the entire series, comes full circle.

It is crazy enough that it really could be one of the biggest twists in the rest of the series...and I'm buying in because ALL the breadcrumbs match up. There's always the less exciting aspect where Xebec is 100% dead in all aspects, but Oda has to explain how Blackbeard came up with this masterplan during Blackbeard's flashbacks.
I understand you disagree with it now but based on what you said then, I hope you can see why I was confused at first by your opinion here. In any case, Xebec's soul is a pretty big part of the theory but it's certainly not the only one, glad to hear you agree with the rest.

On a small side note, I'm still 120% in agreement with you on the Jaya point. It's one of those things that I don't mind being simply being part of a Blackbeard theory due to its ambiguity, so anyone may take it as they will. However, I don't like it when it's the main part of a Blackbeard theory and they theory revolves around it.
Ah, yes and the flaws of one word choice. "Full" agreement is inaccurate in the context of applying the theory for everything. I do think I am 100% consistent with the sexy theory being the unlikely theory.

I 100% know it has come up at least once or twice elsewhere in all of these overlapping discussions, but the major breadcrumb that necessitates Xebec's soul is the creation of Blackbeard's masterplan. The simple explanation is the more likely option to actually occur (excluding B.S. of course). IF we run with the sexy theory of Xebec's soul, then this is the bridge that creates how the masterplan came about. It is less likely to actually occur because it creates a variable of someone manipulating Xebec's soul.

Per my norm: everything in the right context. I am not lying when I say "full agreement" because that is the core of the sexy theory. And that's where asking questions to bridge miscommunication is the main thing. If we agree on 99.99999% of stuff, there has to be something if things don't fit. I approach everything with every member here this way (in regards to One Piece and Dr. Stone at least). It is that simple because that's what comes with literary perfection. It is just a matter of missing breadcrumbs that are 100% there.

In terms of the Jaya tangent: I think I've found a nice balance of just ignoring the probability of it occurring and just running with whatever the flow of the existing discussion is. How well a theory is put together is always the most important variable since I started reading One Piece. Things are too restricted by the 80% completion so new theories are hard. It is the exact opposite of when things felt 100% wide open even just a few years ago.

Accuracy was necessary when there were too many theories going around. The literary perfection chokes off the majority of theories now.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
there are a couple of things I don't find very agreeable with this explanation. Firstly, Marco (The phoenix) heavily hinted that the reason for Teach being able to have two devil fruits was his body, he didn't even suspect the devil fruit itself.
This is overlooking the "anti-logia" properties. Blackbeard 100% feels ALLLLLLL damage he takes. He is even shown having wounds against Ace. Ace doesn't "have haki" at this point in the plot. Any "normal human" just dies and cannot use the yami yami abilities to the fullest. Haki now skews all of the lines and overlaps them (haki explains Ace damaging a logia, any level of defensive haki by Blackbeard explains him surviving and having rapid recovery, etc.). Hell, we might even have B.S. busoushoku where Blackbeard is healing himself at a faster rate because of mastered busoushoku.

Either way, the "abnormal body" is undoubtedly this aspect, which matches the breadcrumbs like the rumors Shanks and Buggy talking about likely being fully true or very close to the truth (in terms of the Oden flashback). Blackbeard was a freak of nature from the start, and it allowed for the perfect masterplan.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
And secondly, if the yami yami no mi is the king of all devil fruits and can allow Teach to have a second devil fruit, it can theoretically allow him to have as many devil fruit abilities as he wants. If such a thing were possible, albeit it technically wouldn't contradict anything, it's certainly not a development I'd like to see.
And now the ability hunt should make a ton more sense...literary perfection. Oda already appears that he is going to contradict whatever inspiration/source behind the three skulls for Blackbeard's jolly roger (unless Blackbeard is smart enough to only stick to having as many powers as he can master, which would put him at three based on the time he has to train => the gura gura abilities take extra time since he cannot accidentally destroy the island he's on or take out nearby allies).
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
Not really. It's the same with kairoseki or still water. According to your explanation, couldn't the devil also move to the part of the body not submerged in water or the part of the body not touching kairoseki? Since an ability is negated as long as a user is submerged in still water (more than 50% of their body) or is touching kairoseki, it also makes sense to me if an ability is negated when Teach is touching any part of their body. I'd say this is cause the devil resides in a user's body.
No...100% different. Is darkness the "enemy of the devil's"? The ocean is stated to be the anti-devils. There is absolute negation because it is the anti material. The early "B.S." was Oda expanding this to ALL water (which is for the better since it would make carrying around ocean water or manmade salt water over powering). It has been 100% consistent throughout the series because there is steadily greater effect as the percentage of submersion increases. Even Yonkou being seemingly "immune" to pure kairouseki is only a reflection of the astronomical jump in their physical capabilities. And now I have even more ammunition on physical gap difference because Luffy only has tiny little cuffs that are likely less than 50% kairouseki in Udon which is a drop in the ocean compared to Big Mom being in 100+ chains of huge 100% kairouseki. I see zero B.S. in all of this.

So how exactly does darkness negate fruit abilities/the devils?
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
How does the negation with kairoseki occur? Its attributes are presumably a devil's "weakness".
How is darkness a "weakness"? There has to be a magical aspect to it in my mind...and that in turn directly ties into the king of all devils. Unless you have some sort of alternative explanation, darkness has nothing to point to being a second anti-devil material thus far. Everything points to something magical. If it is magical, then the king of the devils is the simplest explanation that currently matches ALL existing breadcrumbs.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
So it wouldn't be too farfetched for there to be a devil whose abilities match those attributes or are an entirely new weakeness altogether. Magic which nullifies other magic. Abilities which nullify other abilities. Quirks which nullify other quirks. Such paradoxes are quite common in manga / anime. So a devil fruit ability which nullifies other devil fruit abilities sounds quite plausible to me.
And these already exist with linear/direct opposites. This does not explain the implied universal negation. We already had a second instance with Luffy having his immunity to physical attacks negated in Impel Down. It was already implied anyway, but we have definitive proof with the second instance.

If it was like Luffy negating all of Enel's attacks, then 100% zero problem (Blackbeard can only negate Ace's powers which are kind of like "light"). That's just a one to one ratio. Blackbeard has a universal advantage that is an exception to the one anti-devil material. Something has to be magical/new. All breadcrumbs only point in one direction.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
You just seem to put more importance in physique than me. For me, the more the series progresses, the less importance physique has for me. Granted, zoan devil fruits do offer a decent power up because the user's muscles presumably take on the qualities of the animal of their fruit so it offers a qualitative change. Still, at this point of the series, it's enough to allow one to damage their opponent more but NOT enough to knock people with resilience like Luffys out in ONE hit. I just don't put that much importance to physique when there are factors like haki (not just the coating, I'm talking about willpower itself) in play.
Maybe not on the biggest discrepancy...physique is not important?! Really? So Luffy can match Big Mom and Kaidou and be fine with 100+ huge chains of pure kairouseki on him? All of this seems completely illogical to me.

If we are only talking about oversized humans and giants not mattering to freaks of nature like Luffy/Zoro/Sanji then we have some validity depending on the context. The protagonists are stronger than most oversized humans and giants. However, the top 1% or top 0.00000001% with Yonkou/admirals is clearly by all legit content to be in a completely different world from Luffy (unless you buy into B.S. of Yonkou weakening => which is all the B.S. I've been talking about since the start).

Oh, FYI Marco requested to be kept in the loop once I see the signs of potential complaints (that have been confirmed as all of you, including Marco himself from what I'm reading/understanding, are just reading any reference to personal stuff as an attack when none is present). This inability to agree on what seems like 100% undeniable content is the start of the negative turn. I gave my word I would do the petty crap that seems like tattle tailing to me, so I will PM Marco come the next response.

I am making it clear that Marco had zero proof of an attack and did zero denial that I live up to what I say. I have put up with enough crap since I got my proof that I've been able to live up to what I say I do. I am very glad you are able to take being wrong astronomically better than everyone else in all long discussions. However, it is 100% my style to make things clear once I get proof of what reality is. It 100% was not my decision to have to tattle tail and I was 100% against it. However, I do see both sides so it is what it is and I chose to do what I think is best. Oh, and just in case, Marco and the main team is busy enough as is (new project) so the two of us being able to get through bridging things smoothly is the best for everyone.

But back on topic:







How do you explain the difference between Luffy in Udon and Big Mom being taken to Onigashima? How in the world does this not imply a one hit KO by physical power alone? How much more proof of Yonkou weakening do we have to go through?





I technically made compromises because the jump to Yonkou level is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY bigger than a jump from 80/100 up to 90/100. Even for exponential increases, the jump to Yonkou level already exceeds all other jumps like oversized humans, Shichibukai (unless it is Shichibukai compared to normal humans), and all aspects of haki excluding the ability to touch logia.

Once again, Oda wrote himself into a hole by making the jump this big. Logically, Luffy absolutely needs his awakening, but I'll say it again that you have no idea how stupidly petty F'ing Oda is. I'm going to use a second tag to go on a tangent that has come up before @Yuuzume: IF the reality were that Oda was going to permanently ruin the rest of the series in 10ish more chapters, how much of a fuss would you be making? This matches my definition of a legitimate second tag. I'm probably not making a big enough of a deal about all of this, but the biggest part is that it is already too little too late. At the latest, the paradigm shift had to be at the beginning of Wano Kuni arc B.S. Fans making a fuss is already too late since Oda committed to both B.S. kenbunshoku mastery and Kaidou's defeat (context also implies Big Mom's defeat too). And this is all before the end of volume 101, which we 100% are already into (and as much as halfway already).
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
I just don't put that much importance to physique when there are factors like haki (not just the coating, I'm talking about willpower itself) in play.
This whole screw it mindset is making me willing to run with all tangents, but most of the above should make it quite clear, so most of the stuff should be at least partially bridged.

This only fits IF we run with the B.S. of the simplicity of mastered haki. And it is so f'ing ironic of the stupid B.S. Oda created that even the mastery of haoushoku coating is DIRECTLY contradicted by Page One RAPIDLY recovering from a Big Mom haoushoku coating attack. Oda just scars his child more and more and at this point this is the only pleasure I will get. Seeing how perfect it all could have been and contrasting it to the crap hole it is starting to become already.

Sure, I'm fine giving Oda the benefit of the doubt that the Page One incident is the minor B.S. and that haoushoku coating can be the massive power up you are implying. That does match the aspect of mastery and exponential increase in skill/capabilities. It does not match the literary perfection of how power ups are normally achieved (this is in DIRECT reference to "coating"/level 2 haki/"ryuou" being a "basic technique"). If Luffy cannot even stand, how the hell is he able to sprint? The anime tries to bridge this, but being able to stand does not explain being able sprint like Usain Bolt. Everything else prior had incremental jumps that were connected/believable. AND THAT'S MY GRIPE...Oda is choosing to deviate from the rational progression just because a likely very small group of Japanese fans figured out future events. Oda is choosing to be f'ing stupid over completely illogical B.S. (thinking it is possible to have everyone fully surprised and not see the picture when 80% of the puzzle pieces are already in place). Having 99.9999% of fans surprised was the smart decision....but noooooooooo.

I have a really hard time thinking you aren't seeing more and more of this Yuz. But too little too late.

Just in case: so yes, I 100% agree that it is possible that haoushoku coating alone bridges the gap to Yonkou level....however only at the expense of multiple aspects of B.S. (Luffy in Udon and Big Mom taken away from Udon is probably the most recent proof that I need to reference => and even if more is needed EVERY breadcrumb on Yonkou/admiral level matches this anyway and I'm fine going down that tangent with this new screw it mindset).

Maybe the Tokyo Olympics will create a miracle and the extra week of an unplanned break contributes to the miracle, but the miracle has to be Oda's willingness to admit his mistake fully and negate something already established (at this point he has to contradict multiple points which makes it all the more unlikely to occur). And thus, the legitimacy to my pure pessimism when it comes to Oda and running with B.S.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
I haven't watched the anime in quite a while now so I can't talk about that. But as far as the manga goes, Luffy downright states that what he was using prior to chapter 1010 wasn't advanced busoshoku. He truly uses advanced busoshoku for the first time on chapter 1010 (unless you count the one time he took off Hyogoro's collar but that seemed more like a fluke brought about by a sense of urgency than something intentinal).
I gotta be blunt: holy crap..."basic technique". Thinking "coating"/level 2 haki/"ryuou" = "advanced busoushoku" IS THE B.S. "Basic" is "basic". Yonkou weakening. I'm trying to do my best since I'm in a negative mood with all the stupidity by Oda, but all the breadcrumbs only point in one direction. You are contradicting yourself. This directly ties to the "pro-Oda" tangent.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
Btw, I hope my reply on the Fuji thread was enough to convince you of the "pro-Oda" misconception but if it didn't, there's not much else I can say about it.
It comes up again here because not calling out Oda on his B.S. contradictions is being a supporter of stupid Oda B.S. Oda is contradicting MULTIPLE aspects. And I now know why my gut said to run with all the tangents because it is proof of all the B.S. everywhere.

At the very core of what started all of these discussions is the Yonkou weakening of Oda trying to make "ryou"/level 2 haki/"coating" equal "advanced busoushoku". This is the very ESSENCE of my argument of Yonkou weakening. It is B.S. because Rayleigh confirmed it is a basic technique. Sentoumaru and the weakling Boa sisters can use "advanced busoushoku" and this contradicts them being absolute weaklings in the New World.

The B.S. is EVERYWHERE now that Oda has FURTHER run with the B.S. And now this validates my anger towards Oda because even YOU were sucked into his trap of digging into the Oda B.S. grave deeper and deeper.

I'm really, really curious. If this post doesn't bridge the gap, I think I literally have to type out every Yonkou/admiral level breadcrumb. It is as simple as it appears, and all the breadcrumbs point in only one direction: Oda completely and absolutely f'ed up his child. Seeing the last part of my previous post over and over only reinforces it more and more. Oda will torment himself for how much he f'ed everything up and it is his own fault. He will take it harder than anything I could say to him directly and that makes it all the more fitting. He had a chance to make a world changing manga (he can introduce morals and political stances freely), but the B.S. is already creating shaky ground that will only get worse. Literally infinite potential was lost in essentially a year and a half. Oda could have achieved something superhuman that benefits the world more so than any other human creation or action. And Oda's f'ing petty pride ruined it all despite the correct and pure intentions. I'm so glad excellence takes being one's own biggest critic. Oda will get exactly what he deserves. And if it wasn't clear, a willingness to run with B.S. once the realization of the contradiction is made is 10 billion percent the biggest pet peeve I have. Choosing to be stupid makes no sense to me, and especially if it causes only negative/detriment.

And just in case: I hope the above parts create the bridge that you aren't following in Oda's footsteps of stupidity.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
Not really for me. I've actually even used that example before as a point to support my opinion. I suggested that what Rayleigh showed at the start was advanced busoshoku, that's why we haven't seen it until now since Rayleigh's explanation about haki (Sentonmaru used it prior to it).
WAIT WHAT?! You just ACCEPT the contradiction?!?!?!?!?






HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?!?!?!?





I am sooooooo confused now. Is it as simple as just get rid of the one key breadcrumb since the new B.S. makes it the exception? It reeks of that sentiment based on how your comment reads. At this point, I lost hope then. I'll just wait and see what response I get from this post.
Yuuzume wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:54 pm
To the best of my knowledge, it should be something akin to karmic / heavenly retribution. Like I said in the Fuji thread though, if Oda sinks it, he sinks it. I'm not going to defend any BS WHEN it happens (not before it happens).
And per my norm, I have proof now with the above part. It has already happened and you just casually say the contradiction is fine.









I'm tagging you @Kaijinmaru so that you are taken to this part of the post directly. I always encourage people to jump in on any discussion (unless it is personal stuff as an outsider). Giving a relevant opinion is what our original home was founded on. Oh...I think I have to remember to like the post after so that the tag notification comes first too...

Kaijinmaru wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:11 pm
An interesting theory, I have a slightly different take on it, we'll see what you all think of that. What if we treated "The voice of all things" as something completely independant to Haki.
I'm glad you liked it. Prior to the now "B.S. forced introduction of mastered kenbunshoku", I would have 100% agreed with you on this mindset. Just in case: Oda has fully committed (my terminology is that Oda put "definitive breadcrumbs" for us to read) to forcing Luffy to get mastered kenbunshoku earlier than he was supposed to. Because it is out of order, things do not fit, and my bias of B.S. is being confirmed by contradictions with haki, "basic" vs. advanced haki, haoushoku coating, and my bias of "Yonkou weakening".
Kaijinmaru wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:11 pm
Enel and his priests could "hear" people, in some combination of observation haki and something else entirely. Observation haki hasn't been shown to be able to hear something far away and unconnected to you directly.
It has come up in our "long discussions" that I think there is "brain blackening" and "ear blackening". This explains everything about mantra except the "foresight kenbunshoku". The ability to see into the future is best explained by "eye coating". Level 2 haki is a massive power up compared to just blackening. Mantra is a huge power up because it has foresight kenbunshoku as a primary power. Coating the eyes with haki (and coating by "level 2 haki", which I'm remembering Oda using as a description in a chapter, vs. coating by only blackening) explains the exponential jump to seeing the future just as coating a body part astronomically increases damage output.
Kaijinmaru wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:11 pm
Sea kings - The enormous sea kings that Roger, Luffy, Oden, and others heard they were unable to communicate back with. At that point both Oden and Roger had a high level of haki usage yet they were still unable to communicate back to the sea kings. They have often said that they are waiting to be given a direction or command, I am assuming that this means they cannot hear others as well.

Shirahoshi - She has been shown to have the ability to talk to those who speak through the "Voice of all things" but she cannot hear them, another one way application of this ability.

Going Merry - She seemed to be able to speak with them through the spirit of the ship and the voice of all things, but it was never confirmed that she could hear them back. I am going to assume for the sake of this moving forward (and my emotional stability) that Merry could at least hear Luffy.
I 100% agree that these examples of communication/voices are the supernatural that matches a "magical" aspect. The other main example is Luffy and Momo being able to hear Zunisha's voice. However, Luffy being able to plant his thoughts into Momo with the recent B.S. chapter...indicates that things will likely be simplified through what Oda wants mastered kenbunshoku to allow.
Kaijinmaru wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:11 pm
WIth those examples in mind there is only one character in all of One Piece that has shown the ability to not only hear, but also to be able to communicate to others through "the voice of all things". Luffy.
One minor pushback from my end is Roger. Roger could hear inanimate objects. He can "hear" the poneglyph in Skypeia (100% confirmation in Oden's flashback). Maybe Roger is the only person that can hear inanimate objects, but Luffy not being able to hear inanimate objects implies that Roger has a mastery that is above Luffy.

Moreover, Luffy having an ability from the voice of all things greater than Roger prior to the end of the series seems 100% contradictory to me.

So ultimately, this theory is based on how we will likely have at least a minor overlap between the voice of all things and mastered kenbunshoku. If you stick around, you will read "literary perfection", "all breadcrumbs only point in one direction", "the facade of complexity", and the other things I repeat all the time. It is 100% possible to "know Oda's style". I've been told it couldn't be done for 13-14 of my 15 years of following the series. We are close enough it can be rounded up to 14-15 of my 16 years of following the series.

FYI, I am having a very negative bias because of all of the direct contradictions...that are getting astronomically worse. I fully expect the series to be permanently ruined before the end of volume 101 (which we could be halfway through in the absolute worst case scenario). If you want to follow through with any of these tangents...you came to the right thread.
Kaijinmaru wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:11 pm
What a massive thing this would be if Luffy is the conduit that can bridge the gap and not only hear the sea kings, but talk with Shirahoshi and tell her exactly what and why they need direction. If he could broadcast his voice over such a distance into Onigashima from the ocean itself how far could he speak to not just an island, but a nation, and eventually, maybe even everyone who can hear it.

I take this as a sign of something further to come with Luffy being the two way street that both the truth of the world and that communication between those that have stayed silent and isolated for hundreds of years will be able to utilize to have their voice heard by the world again.
Just in case, I 100% agree that this was things meant for LATER in the series. It all fits, which is why "all the breadcrumbs only point in one direction". The points you bring up are stuff I 100% did not think about since I assumed "Poseidon" develops the two way communication upon "activation". Shirahoshi is an "incomplete Poseidon" to me right now. She cannot control the weak Sea Kings. Poseidon can kill the vast majority of the human population because she can turn all Sea Kings to attack humans. So my bias says Shirahoshi will have two way communication for all Sea Kings (and her combat contribution for the main war will be the "Kings of the Sea Kings" which are implied to be the Yonkou/admiral level Sea Kings).

I do think it makes Luffy alllllll the more important with what you describe above, so this is exactly why I want people to jump in on any and all discussions.

However, Oda is purposefully choosing to run with B.S. contradictions and change the plot from what he took decades and decades to plan. I 100% guarantee Oda has zero intention of having Luffy defeat Kaidou with the help of an awakening. The angry side of me is comparing the original plan to the current plan of Luffy and Yamato and how the version we get looks like absolute crap compared to what it was supposed to be. So if nothing else, I get to have some positive and fun reminiscing on how great things were supposed to be.


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seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
It has come up in our "long discussions" that I think there is "brain blackening" and "ear blackening". This explains everything about mantra except the "foresight kenbunshoku". The ability to see into the future is best explained by "eye coating". Level 2 haki is a massive power up compared to just blackening. Mantra is a huge power up because it has foresight kenbunshoku as a primary power. Coating the eyes with haki (and coating by "level 2 haki", which I'm remembering Oda using as a description in a chapter, vs. coating by only blackening) explains the exponential jump to seeing the future just as coating a body part astronomically increases damage output.

Maybe I missed this, was this ever confirmed to be fact? I haven't seen any reference to the "blackening' or armament being used in this way. As far as I know only observation haki has been shown to apply to the concept of "knowing your enemy" observation, taking in all around you. encompassing the knowledge you have obtained with your body, eyes, ears, and senses to respond to your opponent and your environment.

"Hearing" and the voice of all things, as far as I know, has never been tied to Haki. from Codi's use, to Enel, to the young Shandian whose name I always forget, and lastly the three eye tribe. In all these cases Haki was never shown to be used unconsciously or otherwise. It has been implied that those with observation haki have been the more likely ones to develop this. But to me at least, the voice of all things has never canonically been tied to Haki beyond a possible indicator of the possibility to develop hearing the voice of all things.

Lastly the blackening (eye/ear) theory, is this local canon? I'm trying to find any reference to this at all and I can't seem to find it. I understand the theory but from what I can tell Oda has been keeping all these things separate. if I am wrong correct me I am more than open to being wrong but I don't think I am here.


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Events

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
Ah, yes and the flaws of one word choice. "Full" agreement is inaccurate in the context of applying the theory for everything. I do think I am 100% consistent with the sexy theory being the unlikely theory.

I 100% know it has come up at least once or twice elsewhere in all of these overlapping discussions, but the major breadcrumb that necessitates Xebec's soul is the creation of Blackbeard's masterplan. The simple explanation is the more likely option to actually occur (excluding B.S. of course). IF we run with the sexy theory of Xebec's soul, then this is the bridge that creates how the masterplan came about. It is less likely to actually occur because it creates a variable of someone manipulating Xebec's soul.

Per my norm: everything in the right context. I am not lying when I say "full agreement" because that is the core of the sexy theory. And that's where asking questions to bridge miscommunication is the main thing. If we agree on 99.99999% of stuff, there has to be something if things don't fit. I approach everything with every member here this way (in regards to One Piece and Dr. Stone at least). It is that simple because that's what comes with literary perfection. It is just a matter of missing breadcrumbs that are 100% there.
Hmm, that sounds fine but I do have a question now. Part of why I like adding Xebec's soul into the mix is cause it explains young Teach being smart enough to concoct his master plan at such a young age. And in the part I quoted to you in my previous message, you even say yourself that in the less exciting version, where Xebec's soul is not factored in, Oda would have to explain how Teach came up with his master plan at a young age. So, out of curiosity, since you don't think Xebec's soul will be factored in, how do you think said explanation about how young Teach came up with such a devious plan will go?

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
This is overlooking the "anti-logia" properties. Blackbeard 100% feels ALLLLLLL damage he takes. He is even shown having wounds against Ace. Ace doesn't "have haki" at this point in the plot. Any "normal human" just dies and cannot use the yami yami abilities to the fullest. Haki now skews all of the lines and overlaps them (haki explains Ace damaging a logia, any level of defensive haki by Blackbeard explains him surviving and having rapid recovery, etc.). Hell, we might even have B.S. busoushoku where Blackbeard is healing himself at a faster rate because of mastered busoushoku.

Either way, the "abnormal body" is undoubtedly this aspect, which matches the breadcrumbs like the rumors Shanks and Buggy talking about likely being fully true or very close to the truth (in terms of the Oden flashback). Blackbeard was a freak of nature from the start, and it allowed for the perfect masterplan.
@seiryu Nope. I 120% strongly disagree with this. The "anti logia" aspect is 100% due to the yami yami no mi itself, not Teach's body. During Teach's fight with Ace, he states it himself. He says that because the darkness has the property of drawing everything to itself, he can't "phase through" attacks like other logia users can. I don't think the translation of that part could have been bad enough to cause this big of a misunderstanding but if you want, you can check it out yourself. For now, going by what I read back then and unless proven otherwise, I believe the anti logia properties are caused due to the fruit and Teach's abnormal body is only related to his ability to possess 2 devil fruit abilities at the same time.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
And now the ability hunt should make a ton more sense...literary perfection. Oda already appears that he is going to contradict whatever inspiration/source behind the three skulls for Blackbeard's jolly roger (unless Blackbeard is smart enough to only stick to having as many powers as he can master, which would put him at three based on the time he has to train => the gura gura abilities take extra time since he cannot accidentally destroy the island he's on or take out nearby allies).
Why would he need to train? I mean, sure, he can choose 3 abilities to train and be the most proficient at but why would that stop him from getting more abilities? Once someone eats a devil fruit, they gain an understanding of how to at least use its basic abilities (like Kaku and Kalifa). So he could eat as many devil fruits as he wants and he could use every single ability properly up to its basic level. And even the basic level of a devil fruit ability is enough to consistute a power up. Not to mention that he already can't swim so there would be absolutely no drawbacks. Even if he got an ability that could endanger his crewmates without proper training, that would not stop Teach. He doesn't exactly strike me as the guy who's stop gaining more power for the sake of his nakama. As far as I can see, there's nothing stopping him from getting as many powers as he wants IF we run with the notion of it being possible by suggesting the yami yami no mi's devil is the king of devils. And that's a big reason why I don't like said motion. Still, I'm not saying it's impossible. However, if it does end up being the case, I'd want a proper explanation that would limit Teach's ability to absorb devils and prevent the aforementioned scenario of him being able to acquire dozens of them.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
No...100% different. Is darkness the "enemy of the devil's"? The ocean is stated to be the anti-devils. There is absolute negation because it is the anti material. The early "B.S." was Oda expanding this to ALL water (which is for the better since it would make carrying around ocean water or manmade salt water over powering). It has been 100% consistent throughout the series because there is steadily greater effect as the percentage of submersion increases. Even Yonkou being seemingly "immune" to pure kairouseki is only a reflection of the astronomical jump in their physical capabilities. And now I have even more ammunition on physical gap difference because Luffy only has tiny little cuffs that are likely less than 50% kairouseki in Udon which is a drop in the ocean compared to Big Mom being in 100+ chains of huge 100% kairouseki. I see zero B.S. in all of this.

So how exactly does darkness negate fruit abilities/the devils?
Again, how does kairoseki negate fruit abilities? It's just a natural weakness of the devils. I wouldn't find it far fetched for there to be another such weakness that's limited to a single devil fruit. Is the darkness a natural weakness of devils? Could be. Can the yami yami no mi's abilities of pulling everything into darkness somehow be used to temporarily sever the link between a devil fruit user and their devil? Certainly possible. Is the yami yami no mi's devil the king of devils? That's where slight problems arise. It's certainly possible but if that turns out to be the case, there should ideally be certain explanations that come along with it. Explanations as to why Teach couldn't just supress all other devils and couldn't absorb an unlimited amount of devil fruit abilities for himself. And explanations as to why the king of devils couldn't supress others devils without there being physical contact between users.

Side note: I'll adress the kairoseki handcuffs issue later as the upcoming parts are more appropriate for it.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
How is darkness a "weakness"? There has to be a magical aspect to it in my mind...and that in turn directly ties into the king of all devils. Unless you have some sort of alternative explanation, darkness has nothing to point to being a second anti-devil material thus far. Everything points to something magical. If it is magical, then the king of the devils is the simplest explanation that currently matches ALL existing breadcrumbs.
The issue I have with the king of all devils notion isn't that it doesn't match the existing breadcrumbs, it's that it needs even more of them to function properly. And I personally think that whether the explanation for it ends up being the king of all devils, the natural weakness or even a stright up vague description in the lines of "the yami yami no mi's ability to suck everything into darkness somehow severs the connection between the devil fruit user and the devil", all of them are "magical". Even kairoseki is magical, it's not like we ever got an explanation as to why kairoseki or even ocean water are the devils' weakness. It's just an established fact we accepted.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
And these already exist with linear/direct opposites. This does not explain the implied universal negation. We already had a second instance with Luffy having his immunity to physical attacks negated in Impel Down. It was already implied anyway, but we have definitive proof with the second instance.

If it was like Luffy negating all of Enel's attacks, then 100% zero problem (Blackbeard can only negate Ace's powers which are kind of like "light"). That's just a one to one ratio. Blackbeard has a universal advantage that is an exception to the one anti-devil material. Something has to be magical/new. All breadcrumbs only point in one direction.
I'm not talking about direct opposites. I was talking about absolute negation abilities, which many series have. Magic to nullify ALL magic, quirks to nullify ALL quirks, abilities to nullify ALL other abilities. Even in some cases, there are only a few exceptions to those abilities of absolute negation. Hence why they're waay closer to absolute negation than they are to "opposite element" negation. And yeah, Teach's ability is the only one with that privilege.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
Oh, FYI Marco requested to be kept in the loop once I see the signs of potential complaints (that have been confirmed as all of you, including Marco himself from what I'm reading/understanding, are just reading any reference to personal stuff as an attack when none is present). This inability to agree on what seems like 100% undeniable content is the start of the negative turn. I gave my word I would do the petty crap that seems like tattle tailing to me, so I will PM Marco come the next response.

I am making it clear that Marco had zero proof of an attack and did zero denial that I live up to what I say. I have put up with enough crap since I got my proof that I've been able to live up to what I say I do. I am very glad you are able to take being wrong astronomically better than everyone else in all long discussions. However, it is 100% my style to make things clear once I get proof of what reality is. It 100% was not my decision to have to tattle tail and I was 100% against it. However, I do see both sides so it is what it is and I chose to do what I think is best. Oh, and just in case, Marco and the main team is busy enough as is (new project) so the two of us being able to get through bridging things smoothly is the best for everyone.
Just wanted to point out that I haven't perceived any attack from you other than the time recently, when you insisted on making it personal. Ever since I met you back in OPF up to this very moment, excluding that one instance, I have perceived absolutely zero attacks from you. Not sure if you think I perceived an attack here or if this is just a heads up (I think the case is the latter). If it's the former, then no attack was perceived, rest assured. If it was a heads up, it's much appreciated. Of course you're more than welcome to keep Marco into the loop.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
Maybe not on the biggest discrepancy...physique is not important?! Really? So Luffy can match Big Mom and Kaidou and be fine with 100+ huge chains of pure kairouseki on him? All of this seems completely illogical to me.

If we are only talking about oversized humans and giants not mattering to freaks of nature like Luffy/Zoro/Sanji then we have some validity depending on the context. The protagonists are stronger than most oversized humans and giants. However, the top 1% or top 0.00000001% with Yonkou/admirals is clearly by all legit content to be in a completely different world from Luffy (unless you buy into B.S. of Yonkou weakening => which is all the B.S. I've been talking about since the start).
seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
How do you explain the difference between Luffy in Udon and Big Mom being taken to Onigashima? How in the world does this not imply a one hit KO by physical power alone? How much more proof of Yonkou weakening do we have to go through?
I think you're overlooking one important fact here. Kairoseki handcuffs / chains don't weaken someone's physique, they weaken one's devil. Is the effect kairoseki weakened against someone with a larger body? Entirely possible, because the devil resides in one's body while the user is alive. So the surface a kairoseki chain covers is different according to the size of the targer, hence the effect can also vary. The same can be said for sea water. If we take a pool big enough for Big Mom to be submerged in halfway, Luffy would be drown in a pool of the same size. Hence if a kairoseki chain is used, it makes sense to me for it to have less of an effect to a person of bigger size. And even beyond that, someone's devil could also be stronger than another due to higher devil fruit mastery. However, I repeat, kairoseki affects the devil. It's not that Big Mom and Kaido are so physically strong that more Kairoseki is needed to restrain them. It's that their body is different from Luffy's (most likely a matter of size). So the fact that more kairoseki was needed to restrain Big Mom doesn't mean she should be strong enough to knock out Luffy with one punch, and neither should Kaido. I'll repeat myself but physique just doesn't play that big a role in my eyes. That's because for now, it hasn't been suggested to play that much of a role. That could possibly change in the future but until then, I'll run mostly based on the current information and speculations which don't contradict that.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
IF the reality were that Oda was going to permanently ruin the rest of the series in 10ish more chapters, how much of a fuss would you be making?
More likely than not, no fuss at all. IF the reality was as you suggest, that would imply that Oda would have weighed his pettiness / pride / etc against the importance that the series he has poured his life into holds to him, and decided that the former was more important. In front of the importance of the series itself, to its creator , a fuss made by millions or billions of fans still wouldn't be able to tip the scales to the series' favor. Isn't that why you're frustrated? Cause Oda's pettiness / pride is heavier than the importance of series along with the fans' voices. So IF and WHEN said pettiness and pride do actually destroy the series, it'll just be something to be sad about, not something to raise a fuss over. As for me, I'd be more than willing to admit that it has happened IF and WHEN it happens. I've told you this in another of my replies recently (it was after this one so you probably haven't gotten to it yet) but as of right now, I personally don't see it happening.

@seiryu The rest of the comment seems to be about haki so I won't quote everything. It's an important part though, one on which I'd appreciate more opinions so I'll tag the people who come to mind: @Marco Polo @Jawahib @Kaijinmaru Please let me know what you think on the following subject guys.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
At the very core of what started all of these discussions is the Yonkou weakening of Oda trying to make "ryou"/level 2 haki/"coating" equal "advanced busoushoku". This is the very ESSENCE of my argument of Yonkou weakening. It is B.S. because Rayleigh confirmed it is a basic technique. Sentoumaru and the weakling Boa sisters can use "advanced busoushoku" and this contradicts them being absolute weaklings in the New World.
seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:33 am
WAIT WHAT?! You just ACCEPT the contradiction?!?!?!?!?






HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?!?!?!?
Contradiction? 120% NO. The fact that the Boa Sisters (mostly Marigold) and Sentonmaru seem to know how to use advanced busoshoku haki seems to be something you consider B.S. I won't talk about Rayleigh because I doubt you have a problem with him knowing how to use advanced busoshoku. So, the simple question I have is this: Why is it B.S?

First of all, I'll point out something that I thought we had cleared up with the mastery scale of busoshoku haki. Ryuo is NOT "advanced busoshoku". Ryuo is the concept of flow which a busoshoku user has to coprehend and properly incorporate into their basic haki in order for it to advanced to its advanced form. The advanced form would be the "invisible armor" that Rayleigh first introduced, which allows for one to control their busoshoku haki to the point of using the emission technique and attack the opponent with their haki from within. So yeah, like I said to you back when we established the mastery scale, Ryuo is NOT the advanced form but it IS the "stairs" one needs to climb to advanced from basic to advanced as far as busoshoku haki is concerned.

Having said that, you seem to be associating advanced haki with strength. "The Boa sisters and Sentonmaru can use advanced haki but they're weaklings so it's B.S". Again, why?

Advanced busoshoku is a merely a technique. The only requirements is for one to have awakened their busoshoku haki and to have coprehended the concept of flow that is ryuo, and have incorporated it into their basic haki. Does one need to be a Yonko to do that? Does one need to be an Admiral? Does one need to be an Shichibukai? Does someone need to be even just a standard new world level fighter? The answer is no.

Aisa could use kenbunshoku haki. Was she even as strong as a standard grand line level fighter? Otohime could use kenbunshoku haki. Was she even as strong as a standard grand line level fighter? Haki is a technique and whether or not someone can use it or not depends on one's talent to comprehend it. Having strong haki or a large "haki pool" doesn't mean one also has a correspondingly high comprehension level and having high levels of comprehension doesn't mean one has strong haki or a large haki pool.

To give you a real life example, imagine a scrawny man (40kg~) and a well build one (90kg~ with proper muscle mass from working out). And when I saw scrawny, I mean really scrawny, like the breeze could blow him away. Let's say that the scrawny man has excellent boxing sense and talent and the well built one has absolutely no lick of talent in it. Now let's say both spend an equal amount of time being taught how to throw a straight punch. The scrawny man learns it perfectly, no wasted movement, flawless weight distrbution, etc. The well built man can't throw a proper straight punch to save his life and punches like a street thug, wasted movement / flawed weight distribution / etc.

Now, if the two of them fought, who do you think would win? I personally think the weel built guy would barely even feel the scrawny guy's punches. So the well built guy would technically be stronger. But his technique would suck compared to the thin guy.

Similarly, Sentonmaru and the Boa sisters may not be at a Yonko's or an Admiral's level but there's absolutely no reason as to why it'd be impossible for them to be able to use advanced busoshoku haki. I don't know why you'd think them knowing how to use it is a contradiction or B.S but for me it's perfectly fine. Especially since they both would have had proper teachers to learn from, Marygold from Rayleigh and Sentonmaru from Kizaru (or any other high ranking Marine who could use it, Kizaru is the most likely due to the personal relationship).


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Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Oh, FYI Marco requested to be kept in the loop once I see the signs of potential complaints (that have been confirmed as all of you, including Marco himself from what I'm reading/understanding, are just reading any reference to personal stuff as an attack when none is present). This inability to agree on what seems like 100% undeniable content is the start of the negative turn. I gave my word I would do the petty crap that seems like tattle tailing to me, so I will PM Marco come the next response.

the P in “PM” stands for private, not public :ohno:

Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
At the very core of what started all of these discussions is the Yonkou weakening of Oda trying to make "ryou"/level 2 haki/"coating" equal "advanced busoushoku". This is the very ESSENCE of my argument of Yonkou weakening. It is B.S. because Rayleigh confirmed it is a basic technique. Sentoumaru and the weakling Boa sisters can use "advanced busoushoku" and this contradicts them being absolute weaklings in the New World.

My perception of it is that you can use an “advanced” technique without it necessarily being strong. I don’t think X mid-tier fighter having an advanced technique automatically means the Yonkou are weaker than they should be. That’s just not how it works.

Also, I’ve said it a lot before but the Yonkou have been built up to have this aura of invincibility when in reality they’re just mortal pirates. It’s not like we’re fighting against deities or supreme beings here - as Luffy said in chapter 1008. It’s just that the way they’re hyped up for narrative purposes will ALWAYS exceed their actual physical capability, even in situations where we KNOW they’re beatable (Kaido was introduced as a man who’d been defeated several times already yet some are still convinced he should be invincible)


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Marco Polo wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:34 pm
the P in “PM” stands for private, not public
I assume this was meant for Sei and not me, cause the part you quote seems to be from his comment.

Marco Polo wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:34 pm
My perception of it is that you can use an “advanced” technique without it necessarily being strong. I don’t think X mid-tier fighter having an advanced technique automatically means the Yonkou are weaker than they should be. That’s just not how it works.

Also, I’ve said it a lot before but the Yonkou have been built up to have this aura of invincibility when in reality they’re just mortal pirates. It’s not like we’re fighting against deities or supreme beings here - as Luffy said in chapter 1008. It’s just that the way they’re hyped up for narrative purposes will ALWAYS exceed their actual physical capability, even in situations where we KNOW they’re beatable (Kaido was introduced as a man who’d been defeated several times already yet some are still convinced he should be invincible)
The part you quote here is Sei's as well, not mine. But since I'm the one who asked for an opinion on this subject, let me say that I quite agree with this part and I even say so in my previous comment (the part after the tags).


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Kaijinmaru wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:58 pm
Maybe I missed this, was this ever confirmed to be fact? I haven't seen any reference to the "blackening' or armament being used in this way. As far as I know only observation haki has been shown to apply to the concept of "knowing your enemy" observation, taking in all around you. encompassing the knowledge you have obtained with your body, eyes, ears, and senses to respond to your opponent and your environment.

"Hearing" and the voice of all things, as far as I know, has never been tied to Haki. from Codi's use, to Enel, to the young Shandian whose name I always forget, and lastly the three eye tribe. In all these cases Haki was never shown to be used unconsciously or otherwise. It has been implied that those with observation haki have been the more likely ones to develop this. But to me at least, the voice of all things has never canonically been tied to Haki beyond a possible indicator of the possibility to develop hearing the voice of all things.

Lastly the blackening (eye/ear) theory, is this local canon? I'm trying to find any reference to this at all and I can't seem to find it. I understand the theory but from what I can tell Oda has been keeping all these things separate. if I am wrong correct me I am more than open to being wrong but I don't think I am here.
Short answer: no. I'm not sure how much you want to get involved in these sorts of long discussions, so I'll wait for a response since I might just be wasting my time typing out unnecessary explanations.

There is partial overlap with confirmed haki usages and the voice of all things. With the upcoming B.S. forced introduction of mastered kenbunshoku too soon, we are going to get things turned into an even bigger mess.

I'm biased to say Oda missed one simple explanation/addition to the series to make haki fully accepted by the fans (and maybe I'll eventually get to writing this theory). Oda never gave us a thorough enough explanation and never committed to show us concrete/fully believable uses. He shows us these questionable first usages (mastered kenbunshoku per my bias with Luffy and Momo just a few chapters ago, which is just like the first usages of haki => the admirals creating an air wall against Luffy's frozen mast barrage comes to mind) and this only creates more questions than answers.

There is going to be overlap and worst case scenario is that the voice of all things is just one benefit of mastered kenbunshoku.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Hmm, that sounds fine but I do have a question now. Part of why I like adding Xebec's soul into the mix is cause it explains young Teach being smart enough to concoct his master plan at such a young age. And in the part I quoted to you in my previous message, you even say yourself that in the less exciting version, where Xebec's soul is not factored in, Oda would have to explain how Teach came up with his master plan at a young age. So, out of curiosity, since you don't think Xebec's soul will be factored in, how do you think said explanation about how young Teach came up with such a devious plan will go?
Context says young Teach only and ONLY needs to know that the yami yami no mi is the strongest fruit ability. He dumb lucks into Whitebeard being the first major pirate that comes to his small island once he learns this fact from the devil fruit encyclopedia.

I 100% know I directly mentioned how Blackbeard got to learn from observing Whitebeard/Roger/and the rest of the Whitebeard crew. Since he had decades to just sit and wait for the yami yami no mi to come up, THIS is where the masterplan was actually formed. It is illogical to think the young 8ish year old (or whatever age he was) had the plan (unless the Xebec soul aspect is introduced).

Fun for me: facade of complexity. All breadcrumbs only point in one direction. Even Blackbeard attacking Shanks to test his strength fits this perfectly. Because Blackbeard is hiding his true strength once he develops the outline of the masterplan (context implies he doesn't hold back and is the legitimate and only apprentice of the crew until they massively expand after Roger's execution), he needed to test how strong he became with his hidden training.

The decades and decades of time 100% explain the perfect master plan. If I can do things no other PT is claiming to be able to do in less than 10 years of practice, damn straight I can do masterful things in 20-35ish years of planning and practice.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
The "anti logia" aspect is 100% due to the yami yami no mi itself, not Teach's body. During Teach's fight with Ace, he states it himself. He says that because the darkness has the property of drawing everything to itself, he can't "phase through" attacks like other logia users can.
This seems like a contradiction. We are focusing on "how the yami yami abilities negate devils/fruit abilities". If the darkness is "drawing everything" in...that's what I visualize with my bias of the yami yami devil sucking the opponent devil in and subduing it...

So I don't see how the translation about the abnormal body/logia but not a logia aspect has to deal with the main point of this tangent @Yuuzume. If the translation is relevant to how devils are negated, I'll go look it up and translate. Based on how this comment reads, it is 100% not relevant. You sound like you are discussing Blackbeard surviving damage from the inability to "fully become darkness" vs. discussing how the mera mera devil is subdued. And based on what I'm reading, you are agreeing with my bias on the explanation from this comment.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Why would he need to train?
Croc gave us the answer. Even a weak ability (Luffy's gomu gomu abilities), becomes a stronger weapon than even the strongest ability (Blackbeard's yami yami) if trained to a higher level. Blackbeard is never stupid. He is never lazy when it comes to what has to be done either. Oh, FYI this is WHY time has to be a limiting factor to having an awakening. It is the ONLY thing that keeps Luffy's win rational. It is impossible to defeat Blackbeard if he has an awakening of the yami yami abilities. Same thing can be said for the gura gura abilities too.

Blackbeard will have close to full proficiency/mastery of his two, three, or whatever fruit abilities. However, he will have zero awakenings (if things are kept rational, but that's getting less and less likely).
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
I mean, sure, he can choose 3 abilities to train and be the most proficient at but why would that stop him from getting more abilities?
And thus I have always said Oda is purposefully keeping both options open.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
So he could eat as many devil fruits as he wants and he could use every single ability properly up to its basic level. And even the basic level of a devil fruit ability is enough to consistute a power up.
10-billion percent incorrect. Bruce Lee said it best: I fear the man that trains 1 kick ten thousand times/something along the lines of not fearing the man that trains 10,000 kicks only once. There is a limit to combinations of fruit abilities Blackbeard can use at once. Having dozens or even hundreds of fruit abilities only means he sucks at more and more of them. This directly ties to the Croc answer. The mastery is all that matters.

So IF Oda goes with the unlimited option, he creates a weakness of Blackbeard for Luffy to create the rational defeat. This is cliche, so my bias is against this and Oda used to hate cliche stuff.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Even if he got an ability that could endanger his crewmates without proper training, that would not stop Teach. He doesn't exactly strike me as the guy who's stop gaining more power for the sake of his nakama.
He did with the gura gura abilities. And more confirmation of misreading Blackbeard because we only see him partying AFTER he gains mastery of the basics/non awakening usages of the abilities. This 10-billion percent makes sense since Blackbeard saw Whitebeard use it for decades and decades so he knows all the best usages of the abilities. He just has to make sure he can do it the same way.

This also contradicts the masterplan. Why even recruit the Level Six inmates? Why give them the best fruit abilities?
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
As far as I can see, there's nothing stopping him from getting as many powers as he wants IF we run with the notion of it being possible by suggesting the yami yami no mi's devil is the king of devils. And that's a big reason why I don't like said motion. Still, I'm not saying it's impossible. However, if it does end up being the case, I'd want a proper explanation that would limit Teach's ability to absorb devils and prevent the aforementioned scenario of him being able to acquire dozens of them.
Again, Oda is keeping the two and only two options open. He never commits to either way whenever Blackbeard and the ability hunt came up/ever since Marineford and Blackbeard getting the gura gura abilities.

I'm SUPER biased to say breadcrumbs only point in one direction on the fruit ability negation. So I'm curious as to the above main question.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
It's just a natural weakness of the devils.
How? This is B.S. in the purest form. I ran into a dead end so I'll just create something new. I'm going to keep harping on it because facade of complexity. The yami yami devil being able to "suck in" the opposing devil and negate it IS the most likely explanation. You said so based on the above main comment. Per my norm: run with the B.S. How does darkness negate devils? We already see the answer with water/ocean. Why isn't Ace physically weakened? I'll answer: because ONLY the mera mera devil is sucked away.

All breadcrumbs only point in one direction. Either that, or you really need to explain the Blackbeard/Ace fight.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Is the darkness a natural weakness of devils? Could be. Can the yami yami no mi's abilities of pulling everything into darkness somehow be used to temporarily sever the link between a devil fruit user and their devil? Certainly possible.
How? This deserves a second tag (or first) @Yuuzume. You are not explaining how. This is the bridging question here...
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Is the yami yami no mi's devil the king of devils? That's where slight problems arise.
I'm fine with running with all tangents since we are bridging old ones. What "problems"? If this is the unlimited fruit abilities, Croc, Bruce Lee, and I all answered this and it is isn't bridged, then it is just the norm of continuing to find the adequate bridging question/different explanation.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
The issue I have with the king of all devils notion isn't that it doesn't match the existing breadcrumbs
"Confirmed to be the STRONGEST ability by the encyclopedia" is NOT enough?!?! I'm super curious about this now...
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Even kairoseki is magical, it's not like we ever got an explanation as to why kairoseki or even ocean water are the devils' weakness. It's just an established fact we accepted.
Yay, I get to directly prove how astronomically greater breadcrumbs are present. Consistency of context and plot. We see ABSOLUTE weakening. Ability users lose ALL function of their fruit ability. Unless they have Yonkou/admiral levels of physical capabilities, they have absolute weakening of their body AND mind (concentration => inadequate concentration means complete loss of all haki usage). All breadcrumbs only point in one direction, and thus there is ZERO physical weakening of Ace and Luffy because it is ONLY a devil negation. So again, how is this made possible?

The "natural enemy" has been proven over and over. We already have a pattern with zero physical weakening and only negation of the devil/fruit ability. I can FULLY explain everything I'm biased towards...and thus the facade of complexity/all breadcrumbs only point in one direction. It is THAT simple. It is ONLY a matter of not taking the time to "run with the B.S." and see that it leads to a contradiction/makes it harder to explain (Xebec's soul makes the plot harder to explain => I 100% referenced the need for Big Mom early in the initial discussion).

It's nice when everything comes together, and this was much faster than I was thinking...and definitely dumb luck on the order of the responses to different threads. This has happened multiple times over the past few months.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
I'm not talking about direct opposites. I was talking about absolute negation abilities, which many series have. Magic to nullify ALL magic, quirks to nullify ALL quirks, abilities to nullify ALL other abilities. Even in some cases, there are only a few exceptions to those abilities of absolute negation. Hence why they're waay closer to absolute negation than they are to "opposite element" negation. And yeah, Teach's ability is the only one with that privilege.
I'm bringing up ALL tangents that seem relevant in my mind because it forces the misconception to jump out. Proof is you mentioning the magic here. You are not explaining the magic for how darkness ONLY negates the devil/fruit ability. IF it is a "natural enemy" (equal to water/ocean), this is now B.S. I think I can just leave it at this since the above should be more than thorough enough.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Just wanted to point out that I haven't perceived any attack from you other than the time recently, when you insisted on making it personal. Ever since I met you back in OPF up to this very moment, excluding that one instance, I have perceived absolutely zero attacks from you. Not sure if you think I perceived an attack here or if this is just a heads up (I think the case is the latter). If it's the former, then no attack was perceived, rest assured. If it was a heads up, it's much appreciated. Of course you're more than welcome to keep Marco into the loop.
Good, and even Marco could not find any attack when we discussed it. He took your side initially, but I stand my ground because I live up to what I say the vast majority of the time. Thankfully, he and I had miscommunication, and that has been fully resolved from what I understand. FYI I only mentioned him again based on this miscommunication.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
I think you're overlooking one important fact here. Kairoseki handcuffs / chains don't weaken someone's physique, they weaken one's devil.
Explain this...I will stick to my beliefs on excessive tags, so strategy two:




How in the world do you explain Big Mom and Kaidou still retaining their physical and mental energy? Kairouseki is EXACTLY like ocean water. It exudes/gives off the signs of the ocean (Marine ships being able to travel the Calm Belt). Greater kairousoki concentration and kairouseki amount increases the effect on a fruit ability user. So how in the world do you explain the difference Yuz?





This contradicts the fusion of the devil with ALL of the user's body upon swallowing the first bite. This sounds like illogical physics that the bigger body somehow makes gravity affect it less than the smaller body. I had to fight off the third/second tag because this is how illogical this sounds...
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
Is the effect kairoseki weakened against someone with a larger body? Entirely possible, because the devil resides in one's body while the user is alive. So the surface a kairoseki chain covers is different according to the size of the targer, hence the effect can also vary. The same can be said for sea water. If we take a pool big enough for Big Mom to be submerged in halfway, Luffy would be drown in a pool of the same size. Hence if a kairoseki chain is used, it makes sense to me for it to have less of an effect to a person of bigger size. And even beyond that, someone's devil could also be stronger than another due to higher devil fruit mastery. However, I repeat, kairoseki affects the devil. It's not that Big Mom and Kaido are so physically strong that more Kairoseki is needed to restrain them. It's that their body is different from Luffy's (most likely a matter of size). So the fact that more kairoseki was needed to restrain Big Mom doesn't mean she should be strong enough to knock out Luffy with one punch, and neither should Kaido. I'll repeat myself but physique just doesn't play that big a role in my eyes. That's because for now, it hasn't been suggested to play that much of a role. That could possibly change in the future but until then, I'll run mostly based on the current information and speculations which don't contradict that.
Oh jeeeeezus...it did come to what I thought it was...so let's run with the B.S. since this now became 100% necessary: how do you explain why Big Mom/Kaidou are fine? Kaidou has to be included because he survives the 19+ execution attempts. He cannot have a potential execution if he is not restrained.

Why is Big Mom not just running away upon landing at Onigashima then?
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:22 pm
More likely than not, no fuss at all. IF the reality was as you suggest, that would imply that Oda would have weighed his pettiness / pride / etc against the importance that the series he has poured his life into holds to him, and decided that the former was more important. In front of the importance of the series itself, to its creator , a fuss made by millions or billions of fans still wouldn't be able to tip the scales to the series' favor. Isn't that why you're frustrated? Cause Oda's pettiness / pride is heavier than the importance of series along with the fans' voices. So IF and WHEN said pettiness and pride do actually destroy the series, it'll just be something to be sad about, not something to raise a fuss over. As for me, I'd be more than willing to admit that it has happened IF and WHEN it happens. I've told you this in another of my replies recently (it was after this one so you probably haven't gotten to it yet) but as of right now, I personally don't see it happening.
The first sentence helps a ton. However, I will continue because you are missing something you said so yourself in other long discussions: Oda is willing to listen to the masses voicing COMPLAINTS. He strangely enough is deaf to praise, but not strange since I wouldn't want to be called "god" by people so I 10-billion percent take that back.

So just like all the Sanji fans that refused to raise a ruckus, all I can say is that you get what you deserve. And most important of all is that Oda is his own biggest critic. So yes, I 10-billion percent agree with that Oda is the most important person. And perfect living contradiction that Oda created the series for the fans and making the world a better place, and he will be the one in a living hell once he realizes the true extent of scarring and permanently ruining his "child". Facade of complexity is all I should have to write.

I'm missing the very tail end of your response, but I'll get to it later. Bridging the biggest stuff makes the small stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier. And that's probably exponentially underestimated/under visualized.


Back to the blind Oda faith (until the next B.S. of course).
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Events

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Context says young Teach only and ONLY needs to know that the yami yami no mi is the strongest fruit ability. He dumb lucks into Whitebeard being the first major pirate that comes to his small island once he learns this fact from the devil fruit encyclopedia.

I 100% know I directly mentioned how Blackbeard got to learn from observing Whitebeard/Roger/and the rest of the Whitebeard crew. Since he had decades to just sit and wait for the yami yami no mi to come up, THIS is where the masterplan was actually formed. It is illogical to think the young 8ish year old (or whatever age he was) had the plan (unless the Xebec soul aspect is introduced).

Fun for me: facade of complexity. All breadcrumbs only point in one direction. Even Blackbeard attacking Shanks to test his strength fits this perfectly. Because Blackbeard is hiding his true strength once he develops the outline of the masterplan (context implies he doesn't hold back and is the legitimate and only apprentice of the crew until they massively expand after Roger's execution), he needed to test how strong he became with his hidden training.

The decades and decades of time 100% explain the perfect master plan. If I can do things no other PT is claiming to be able to do in less than 10 years of practice, damn straight I can do masterful things in 20-35ish years of planning and practice.
Okay, so, let me get this straight. The Marines, a huge organization, Whitebeard and his crew, and possibly every single person in the One Piece world (with a few possible exceptions) do not know of the yami yami no mi's ability to steal devil fruit abilities. All of them are surprised when Teach managed to do so after all. And despite all of those high ranking people who know a great deal of world's secrets not knowing that particular piece of information, you're telling me that a young Teach, without part of Xebec's soul inside of him, knew it?

How in the world would that be possible? And beyond even that, you're telling me that the success of his plan relied on him "lucking out"? My view of his Teach is that his every move is calculated, and not just after he grew up. The impression he gives is that every single move since he was young has been calculated. Him getting the yami yami no mi and gura gura no mi seems almost like something inevidable, not simply a fluke brought about by a magical way of having information that no one else does and blind luck. And for his every move to have been calculated since a young age, a scenario like him having part of Xebec's soul in him seems the most plausible to me. Well, that's just me though, it's not like we have to agree. We seem to disagree on this so there's not much else to say, we can leave it at that since we've already shared our respective perspectives. Unless you have some more concrete information to prove me wrong of course, I'm always open to it.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
This seems like a contradiction. We are focusing on "how the yami yami abilities negate devils/fruit abilities". If the darkness is "drawing everything" in...that's what I visualize with my bias of the yami yami devil sucking the opponent devil in and subduing it...
I'll get to this later.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
So I don't see how the translation about the abnormal body/logia but not a logia aspect has to deal with the main point of this tangent @Yuuzume. If the translation is relevant to how devils are negated, I'll go look it up and translate. Based on how this comment reads, it is 100% not relevant. You sound like you are discussing Blackbeard surviving damage from the inability to "fully become darkness" vs. discussing how the mera mera devil is subdued. And based on what I'm reading, you are agreeing with my bias on the explanation from this comment.
No, this was brought about by one of the implications which woul arise by the notion an existence akin to the king of devils. On this tangent, I maintain that Teach's "abnormal body" is the reason for him being able to wield two devil fruit abilities at the same time. I had thought you were attributing Teach's "anti-logia" properties to his abnormal body rather than his devil fruit. That seems to have been my misunderstanding. If I'm understanding this right, based on your previous comment too, you're suggesting that Teach's abnormal body is what allows his to survive drawing all of the attacks in on him. I'll just say I disagree with this. Teach's physical capabilities haven't been suggested to be top class in any way. Admittedly, his power alone should be quite decent but his endurance and pain tolerance are garbage. In any case, I still maintain his abonormal body is only relevant to him having two devil fruit abilities. It's not something that was suggested to be thanks to his devil fruit and IF we assume that the yami yami no mi is the king of the devils, it should have been hinted as the one responsible for Teach's feat.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Croc gave us the answer. Even a weak ability (Luffy's gomu gomu abilities), becomes a stronger weapon than even the strongest ability (Blackbeard's yami yami) if trained to a higher level. Blackbeard is never stupid. He is never lazy when it comes to what has to be done either. Oh, FYI this is WHY time has to be a limiting factor to having an awakening. It is the ONLY thing that keeps Luffy's win rational. It is impossible to defeat Blackbeard if he has an awakening of the yami yami abilities. Same thing can be said for the gura gura abilities too.

Blackbeard will have close to full proficiency/mastery of his two, three, or whatever fruit abilities. However, he will have zero awakenings (if things are kept rational, but that's getting less and less likely).
Yeah, this sounds well and good, and it's certainly a good reason for Teach to train his main abilities. But as far as the rest go, the question remains the same, why would he? We've seen both Kaku and Kalifa being able to use the basic abilities of their newly acquired devil fruits shortly after eating them. So unless the CP9 have a training room where time flows at a difference pace, they shouldn't have had time to train properly in using their abilties. And yet they were able to. That implies that eating a devil fruit allows one to innately be aware of what their abilities are and how to use them at a basic level. And albeit properly trained abilities are certainly better, even the basic abilities of a devil fruit are beneficial. So again, why would Teach not simply train only his main ones (yami, quake) and eat all the devil fruits he wants? The rest of the abilities would be a basic level but even that would be a power boost. There would absolutely be no downside.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
And thus I have always said Oda is purposefully keeping both options open.
Both are certainly open and like I've said before, I'm considering both options. It's just that the option of there being a devil which acts as the king of devil fruits would lead to certain issues arising. Since your opinion is such, I was hoping you'd tell me your side of the story in answering these questions is all. At least that's the main thing I'm hoping for during this conversation.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
10-billion percent incorrect. Bruce Lee said it best: I fear the man that trains 1 kick ten thousand times/something along the lines of not fearing the man that trains 10,000 kicks only once. There is a limit to combinations of fruit abilities Blackbeard can use at once. Having dozens or even hundreds of fruit abilities only means he sucks at more and more of them. This directly ties to the Croc answer. The mastery is all that matters.

So IF Oda goes with the unlimited option, he creates a weakness of Blackbeard for Luffy to create the rational defeat. This is cliche, so my bias is against this and Oda used to hate cliche stuff.
Again, this sounds excellent. Mastery is certain extremely important and it allows one to utilize an ability to its full potential. But like I say above, Teach can simply just train in using his main ones, no? Beyond that, he could just keep eating devil fruits and that would mean more powers for him. He already can't swim so there's literally no downside to doing so at all. One more devil fruit equals one more set of basic abilities. It's better to have it than to not have it. It only helps and doesn't cause any harm. Well, if such a thing is even possible in the first place. That's still one reason why I'm not too fond of the king of devils notion. There could certainly be a limiting factor to it. And if the king of devils scenario turned out to be the case, I'd be looking forward to such a limiting factor.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
He did with the gura gura abilities. And more confirmation of misreading Blackbeard because we only see him partying AFTER he gains mastery of the basics/non awakening usages of the abilities. This 10-billion percent makes sense since Blackbeard saw Whitebeard use it for decades and decades so he knows all the best usages of the abilities. He just has to make sure he can do it the same way.

This also contradicts the masterplan. Why even recruit the Level Six inmates? Why give them the best fruit abilities?
More like we only see him after the time skip. It's not like we know whether or not Teach partied before or after he had mastered his gura gura abilities. But beyond that, the "best" fruti abilities you're talking about is the suke suke no mi? And by suggesting he cares about his subordinates, are you referring to the time he caused a small earthquake at his island as a warnign to Moria? Or are you referring to him trying to recruit Moria after he rampaged on his island and attacked Teach's "nakama"? Teach views his crewmates as mere tools. The level 6 inmates was the best way to quickly gain many powerful tools at the same time and him equipping them with devil fruit abilities is only an attampt to strengthen said tools. I don't think he'd bat even an eyelid if he saw fit to use the gura gura abilities close to his crewmates as long as it provided him even the smallest benefit. That's just Teach's core personality, manipulative.
seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Again, Oda is keeping the two and only two options open. He never commits to either way whenever Blackbeard and the ability hunt came up/ever since Marineford and Blackbeard getting the gura gura abilities.

I'm SUPER biased to say breadcrumbs only point in one direction on the fruit ability negation. So I'm curious as to the above main question.
Again, both options are certainly open. I made it clear at the beginning of this tangent that I was merely telling my opinion and not treating it as a fact. Both options are currently nothing more than speculation. What I'm hoping for during this conversation is to see how you explain the issues that accompany the notion an existence akin to the king of devils, that's all.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
How? This is B.S. in the purest form. I ran into a dead end so I'll just create something new. I'm going to keep harping on it because facade of complexity. The yami yami devil being able to "suck in" the opposing devil and negate it IS the most likely explanation. You said so based on the above main comment. Per my norm: run with the B.S. How does darkness negate devils? We already see the answer with water/ocean. Why isn't Ace physically weakened? I'll answer: because ONLY the mera mera devil is sucked away.

All breadcrumbs only point in one direction. Either that, or you really need to explain the Blackbeard/Ace fight.
If you're going to the trouble of setting a standard for opinions, make sure to apply it to your own too mate. What is up with the double standard?

First of all, if it wasn't clear at the start, I'll say once more that both options are merely speculation. I favor one over the other and I'd be more than happy to explain my reasoning but that's as far as I'll go. If you want to listen to it, awesome. If you can somehow disprove it with solid facts, again, awesome. If we can both listen to each other's opinions to broaden our horizon's on the subject and simply agree to disagree, superb. That's the long and short of it. If you think I'm trying to convince you of something and run with either explanation, you're mistaken.

In any case, to get back to the double standards. First of all, anything new is B.S? So when Garp could hit Luffy back at Water 7, before haki had become known, that was B.S? Just because an explanation hasn't been revealed yet, it makes it B.S? I don't think so at the very least.

Still, I'd like you to explain something to me please. I'm not dead set on proving anything so I wouldn't it a dead end, but let's go along with that assumption and call Teach's absolute negation a dead end for now. A clear explanation hasn't been stated about it. So we have 2 (maybe more but as far as we can see now 2) explanations for it, right?

1) The attribute of darkness being responsible, either due to is skillset or due to it being a natural weakness.

2) The yami yami no mi being the king of the devils.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong @seiryu , but you said so yourself that BOTH options are currenty open, no?

But somehow one explanation is considered "conjuring something up" or B.S, while the other is considered the natural development of the facade of complexity. So if in the future, Oda says "the yami yami no mi is the king of the devils, that's why it can subdue other devils", would that not be something new? Would that not be thinking something up to explain the situation? What am I missing here? Are not both options open and viable? If both options are open, why is one B.S and the other the inevidable answer?

And there is one more double standard to speak of, the Teach VS Ace fight. For starters, my answer to your question about is simple, because Teach is only touching a small part of Ace's body. Did Luffy collapse with kairoseki handcuffs on? Was Law incapaciated when he was pierced by a kairoseki nail? The answer would be no. That's because the surface of the body covered was minimal so the effects were also minimal, enough to suppress one's devil to a good extend but not enough to weaken them to the point of collapse.

Still, like I say above, what I'm hoping for during this conversation is neither to convince you of anything nor to defend either opinion, it's to get to know your opinion about the issues accompanying the king of devils notion. So allow me to ask you the same two questions you asked me. @seiryu

1) What am I missing on the B.S aspect? Why is the king of devils explanation, which is something new, not B.S while the other is?

2) Why is the Teach VS Ace fight not a problem for you when going with the king of the devils aspect? The user's body is connected with the devil while the user is alive. That's why the user is physically affected when exposed to the devils' weaknesses like kairoseki and seawater, no? My explanation as to why Teach touching a small part of one's body doesn't affect them immensly is as I described above. How would you explain the same situation with the king of the devils aspect in mind? If the yami yami no mi is the king of the devils, it could completely supress the opposing devil, no? Even with the slightest tough, the devil could utterly and throughly supressed and the user would be left with barely enough strenth to move around. Do you think there's a limiting factor to the king of the devil's influence ove other devils like I've suggested before? And if you do, what do you think it is?

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
How? This deserves a second tag (or first) @Yuuzume. You are not explaining how. This is the bridging question here...
Okay, how can Croc produce sand? How can Luffy's body stretch?

At least as far as the first explanation goes (not the devil fruit king one), I'm suggesting that it's part of the yami yami no mi's inherent abilities. Asking me why the yami yami no mi can negate devil fruits is like asking me why the mera mera no mi can produce flames. It's part of its inherent abilities. Whether that's possible thanks to a skill or the properties of darkness itself, either is fine. Rather, even if it's due to the yami yami no mi being the king of the devils, that's fine too (though I'd like other things answered and this is what this discussion is about on my end). I never questioned how it's possible for the king of the devils to subdue other devils or how a devil could even be something akin to a king of its "race" in the first place. That's because both explanations are essentially a new set of rules. Whether those are the existence of the king of devils and the inherent abilities such an existence has or the inherent abilities of the yami yami no mi. That's the answer I can give you but if it's not acceptable, I'd like to ask you as well, how would the king of devils be able to subdue other devils? If the answer is "because it's the king" or "magic", then you shouldn't have an issue with how the yami yami no mi's inherent skills or the darkness' inherent attribute allow for the negation of devil fruit abilities either.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
"Confirmed to be the STRONGEST ability by the encyclopedia" is NOT enough?!?! I'm super curious about this now...
So you're telling me that Teach absolutely wanted to have only the yami yami no mi for his first devil fruit because he heard it was the strongest? Not because he knew that he could steal devil fruit abilities with it? A piece of information that only he seemed to be aware of.

Because it's fine if you're telling me that. There's certainly the possibility that Teach simply wanted the yami yami no mi because it was the strongest and simply lucked out when he found out he could steal devil fruit abilities with it. Then he lucked out again when he found it on Whitebeard's ship. And I assume he lucked out during his fight with Shanks as well? Cause Shanks is a haki prodigy, hard to believe that Teach, without part of Xebec's soul, could content with him. That's fine as an answer but I don't agree with it. I think every action Teach has taken has been calculated down to the details, and the best explanation as to how that was possible, for me, is Marco's theory.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Yay, I get to directly prove how astronomically greater breadcrumbs are present. Consistency of context and plot. We see ABSOLUTE weakening. Ability users lose ALL function of their fruit ability. Unless they have Yonkou/admiral levels of physical capabilities, they have absolute weakening of their body AND mind (concentration => inadequate concentration means complete loss of all haki usage). All breadcrumbs only point in one direction, and thus there is ZERO physical weakening of Ace and Luffy because it is ONLY a devil negation. So again, how is this made possible?

The "natural enemy" has been proven over and over. We already have a pattern with zero physical weakening and only negation of the devil/fruit ability. I can FULLY explain everything I'm biased towards...and thus the facade of complexity/all breadcrumbs only point in one direction. It is THAT simple. It is ONLY a matter of not taking the time to "run with the B.S." and see that it leads to a contradiction/makes it harder to explain (Xebec's soul makes the plot harder to explain => I 100% referenced the need for Big Mom early in the initial discussion).

It's nice when everything comes together, and this was much faster than I was thinking...and definitely dumb luck on the order of the responses to different threads. This has happened multiple times over the past few months.
I answered this above.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
I'm bringing up ALL tangents that seem relevant in my mind because it forces the misconception to jump out. Proof is you mentioning the magic here. You are not explaining the magic for how darkness ONLY negates the devil/fruit ability. IF it is a "natural enemy" (equal to water/ocean), this is now B.S. I think I can just leave it at this since the above should be more than thorough enough.
Again, I've answered this. Teach only touched a small part of the body so the result is miniscule. Similar to how Law was barely affected physically by the Kairoseki nail and could even escape Hawkins' onslaught.

I'm more curious about why you think the subjugation of the king of devils doesn't affect the user physically. After all, the devil is connected with the user's body.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Good, and even Marco could not find any attack when we discussed it. He took your side initially, but I stand my ground because I live up to what I say the vast majority of the time. Thankfully, he and I had miscommunication, and that has been fully resolved from what I understand. FYI I only mentioned him again based on this miscommunication.
Glad to hear it's been cleared up.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
How in the world do you explain Big Mom and Kaidou still retaining their physical and mental energy? Kairouseki is EXACTLY like ocean water. It exudes/gives off the signs of the ocean (Marine ships being able to travel the Calm Belt). Greater kairousoki concentration and kairouseki amount increases the effect on a fruit ability user. So how in the world do you explain the difference Yuz?




This contradicts the fusion of the devil with ALL of the user's body upon swallowing the first bite. This sounds like illogical physics that the bigger body somehow makes gravity affect it less than the smaller body. I had to fight off the third/second tag because this is how illogical this sounds...
Oh, it is definitely as you say. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I disagreed with this. Weakening one's devil certainly weaken's the user's body as well. My point was that you should forget the middle point that is the devil. It's not that more kairoseki was needed for Big Mom cause she's physically stronger. It's most likely because she's "bigger" so a chain which could cover half of Luffy's body would only cover a small part of Big Mom's body. And beyond that, her devil could simply even be stronger, possibly through an awakening. What is certain is that kairoseki doesn't directly affect one's physical condition, so one's physical condition shouldn't matter on how much kairoseki is needed to subdue them.

seiryu wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Oh jeeeeezus...it did come to what I thought it was...so let's run with the B.S. since this now became 100% necessary: how do you explain why Big Mom/Kaidou are fine? Kaidou has to be included because he survives the 19+ execution attempts. He cannot have a potential execution if he is not restrained.

Why is Big Mom not just running away upon landing at Onigashima then?
@seiryu @seiryu Okay, sorry for the double tag here but I just want to be frank about this and ask directly. No offense intended, I'm sincerely curious what's up and why the situation is as it is.

Are you even interested in listening to my opinion? And this is a sincere question. We've reached the point where I can count the opinions I've shared with you, which you haven't called B.S, with my fingers.

At this point, you seem to be unable to go without calling my opinions B.S multiple times per comment, just for being different than yours. You've reached the point where you don't even wait for an explanation and just go all "Explain this B.S Yuz" the moment you see something different than what you want to hear. I'm not offended but I'm not keen on having to deal with it either.

So I'm asking directly, do you not want to hear my opinion mate? If you don't, absolutely no offense taken. I still respect your opinion either way. But if this is just about you trying to force feed me an opinion, I'll just save us both the trouble and tell you no thanks directly. If you do want to hear them, then where is this whole "B.S" thing coming from? Cause this isn't being direct anymore, it's seems more like being condescending.

In any case, I'll get back to the comment. First of all, do you think Kaido had to have been restrained? He's been "captured" by the marines so many times that it's not believeable for it to have been against his will. He wanted to die and wanted to be there.

Either way, I'm not seeing the point of this question. Wasn't kairoseki weakening one's physique something we agreed on? Kairoseki weakenes them physically, just not enough for them to be unable to move or die through normal means. I'd say this is mostly in virtue of their size, not their physique. Are you suggesting that having a strong body negates or lessens the effects of kairoseki? That wouldn't make sense to me cause kairoseki works directly on one's devil and that in turn weakens their body. It's not their body that is affected directly so it's condition shouldn't affect one's resistence towards kairoseki.


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Yuuzume wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:03 am
I assume this was meant for Sei and not me, cause the part you quote seems to be from his comment.

yes

Yuuzume wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:03 am
Marco Polo wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:34 pm
the P in “PM” stands for private, not public
I assume this was meant for Sei and not me, cause the part you quote seems to be from his comment.

Marco Polo wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:34 pm
My perception of it is that you can use an “advanced” technique without it necessarily being strong. I don’t think X mid-tier fighter having an advanced technique automatically means the Yonkou are weaker than they should be. That’s just not how it works.

Also, I’ve said it a lot before but the Yonkou have been built up to have this aura of invincibility when in reality they’re just mortal pirates. It’s not like we’re fighting against deities or supreme beings here - as Luffy said in chapter 1008. It’s just that the way they’re hyped up for narrative purposes will ALWAYS exceed their actual physical capability, even in situations where we KNOW they’re beatable (Kaido was introduced as a man who’d been defeated several times already yet some are still convinced he should be invincible)
The part you quote here is Sei's as well, not mine. But since I'm the one who asked for an opinion on this subject, let me say that I quite agree with this part and I even say so in my previous comment (the part after the tags).

i don't know why it quoted you instead of seiryu, then? maybe i just highlighted the wrong part


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Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Okay, so, let me get this straight. The Marines, a huge organization, Whitebeard and his crew, and possibly every single person in the One Piece world (with a few possible exceptions) do not know of the yami yami no mi's ability to steal devil fruit abilities. All of them are surprised when Teach managed to do so after all. And despite all of those high ranking people who know a great deal of world's secrets not knowing that particular piece of information, you're telling me that a young Teach, without part of Xebec's soul inside of him, knew it?
Why not? What context do we have that people do know about it? The ability to negate ALL fruit abilities alone makes it the strongest fruit ability in the world. If anything, context implies the Government had the yami yami no mi locked up for most of the 800 years so that it could not be targeted by pirates. If anyone but an admiral eats it, they become a key target for pirates.

If it was in use for even parts of the 800 years, then the powers and abilities would be well known. Moreover, everyone is SHOCKED at Blackbeard pulling it off. Even all of the Blackbeard executives questioned if it was possible ("we all go our separate ways if this fails" or something like that).

My bias would be that the 2+ fruit abilities is not part of the masterplan until Blackbeard gets the yami yami abilities and gets a chance to start experimenting with it. I do think he knew that it was not a normal logia and that he is the perfect fit for the abnormal sensations of damage.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
How in the world would that be possible? And beyond even that, you're telling me that the success of his plan relied on him "lucking out"? My view of his Teach is that his every move is calculated, and not just after he grew up. The impression he gives is that every single move since he was young has been calculated. Him getting the yami yami no mi and gura gura no mi seems almost like something inevidable, not simply a fluke brought about by a magical way of having information that no one else does and blind luck. And for his every move to have been calculated since a young age, a scenario like him having part of Xebec's soul in him seems the most plausible to me. Well, that's just me though, it's not like we have to agree. We seem to disagree on this so there's not much else to say, we can leave it at that since we've already shared our respective perspectives. Unless you have some more concrete information to prove me wrong of course, I'm always open to it.
How is the gura gura abilities necessary? Plans should be fluid. My bias says once the experimentation presented itself, it was plot armor that the announcement for Ace's execution was around the same time. The once in a lifetime chance to gain the potentially only ability capable of destroying the world was worth taking the life or death gamble (which is the norm for a D.).

All Blackbeard needs is to be the strongest in the world. Mastery of the yami yami abilities does this. An awakening guarantees this (so just delay and wait until he gets it is worst case scenario for Blackbeard). Plus, it is plot armor anyway to make drama and have Blackbeard the first person in One Piece history to have two fruit abilities.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
If I'm understanding this right, based on your previous comment too, you're suggesting that Teach's abnormal body is what allows his to survive drawing all of the attacks in on him. I'll just say I disagree with this. Teach's physical capabilities haven't been suggested to be top class in any way.
Yes on the reading of my bias. 100% wrong on not being "top class in any way". List of stuff off the top of my head: physical abilities to keep up with Shanks, haki abilities to keep up with Shanks, potentially the ability to instantaneously heal (50-50 if this is Blackbeard's abnormal body or the yami yami abilities actually having logia abilities...but it is just delayed, which doesn't really make sense), and Oda adding the truths of the young apprentice Blackbeard being able to not sleep (pretty sure there were other comments by Shanks and Buggy).

We all agree that Shanks is the best in the world for being at the very top without a fruit ability and without an awakening. Blackbeard does the EXACT same thing. The only exception is Shanks being completely off guard (which is negated by Yonkou level kenbunshoku => Whitebeard swatting Ace away in his sleep).
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Admittedly, his power alone should be quite decent but his endurance and pain tolerance are garbage. In any case, I still maintain his abonormal body is only relevant to him having two devil fruit abilities. It's not something that was suggested to be thanks to his devil fruit and IF we assume that the yami yami no mi is the king of the devils, it should have been hinted as the one responsible for Teach's feat.
Just in case, I'm not against the whole "two souls" aspect. There is nothing to disprove this. Per my norm, it is less likely because of the added plot/explanations that have to be added (which contradicts Oda cutting off years of the manga). The main thing for me at this point is how you address the bridging aspect.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
That implies that eating a devil fruit allows one to innately be aware of what their abilities are and how to use them at a basic level.
I'm quoting this directly because this overlooks "mastery" in my mind. A master can immediately pick up the basics. Even a master has to put thousands of hours to master a skill. Any professional athlete saying they could be elite in another professional sport is 10-billion percent stupid. The truly freak of nature athletes performed both sports for the majority of their lives. Even Usain Bolt looked like crap when he played soccer.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Yeah, this sounds well and good, and it's certainly a good reason for Teach to train his main abilities. But as far as the rest go, the question remains the same, why would he? We've seen both Kaku and Kalifa being able to use the basic abilities of their newly acquired devil fruits shortly after eating them. So unless the CP9 have a training room where time flows at a difference pace, they shouldn't have had time to train properly in using their abilties. And yet they were able to. That implies that eating a devil fruit allows one to innately be aware of what their abilities are and how to use them at a basic level. And albeit properly trained abilities are certainly better, even the basic abilities of a devil fruit are beneficial. So again, why would Teach not simply train only his main ones (yami, quake) and eat all the devil fruits he wants? The rest of the abilities would be a basic level but even that would be a power boost. There would absolutely be no downside.
This sounds like video game logic. Bruce Lee said it best: I fear the man that trains one kick 10,000 times (vs. zero fear of the man that trains 10,000 kicks only once). Basic usage is meaningless at a Yonkou/admiral level. Basic fruit abilities are only a small power boost. Haki is astronomically greater than this.

Kalifa's biggest boost was the ability to negate Sanji by making him a soapy doll (plot armor for Nami's fight). Kaku's biggest boost was just the added strength from a zoan. Mastery would be exponential power ups like Gear Second and Gear Fourth.

Mastery of the yami yami abilities alone are enough to make Blackbeard the nemesis and strongest in the world. I know I've said it before, but Blackbeard having potentially infinite abilities is an automatic weakening because there is no mastery. The smart choice is to have Blackbeard master the yami yami and gura gura abilities (the second is fast because he sees Whitebeard use the best options/techniques).

So the downside is the lack of true mastery.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Both are certainly open and like I've said before, I'm considering both options. It's just that the option of there being a devil which acts as the king of devil fruits would lead to certain issues arising. Since your opinion is such, I was hoping you'd tell me your side of the story in answering these questions is all. At least that's the main thing I'm hoping for during this conversation.
Just make sure to directly question or tag (FYI more lack of not typing things out, at least per the opening post of the Brook thread and the aspect of a dead soul being a key factor). So I'm extremely biased to trust my memory.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
He already can't swim so there's literally no downside to doing so at all.
This sounds like you've never trained a sport, martial arts, anything with physical exertion. "Muscle memory" is true in the sense that we learn movement patterns. Different skills require different "muscle memory". Spamming massive volume dilutes the quality of performance. Even within the same sport, no one can play all positions (very rarely play multiple positions) because the skillsets are so different.

What you are saying here is physically impossible to do. Oda (previously) has followed real life science, physiology, etc. to drive One Piece fighting mechanics. Unless we are going full B.S., Blackbeard being able to maintain high proficiency of many fruit abilities is 10-billion percent B.S. With B.S. already going on...I can readily see this being what Oda has to fall back to. Ugh...
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Again, this sounds excellent. Mastery is certain extremely important and it allows one to utilize an ability to its full potential. But like I say above, Teach can simply just train in using his main ones, no? Beyond that, he could just keep eating devil fruits and that would mean more powers for him. He already can't swim so there's literally no downside to doing so at all. One more devil fruit equals one more set of basic abilities. It's better to have it than to not have it. It only helps and doesn't cause any harm. Well, if such a thing is even possible in the first place. That's still one reason why I'm not too fond of the king of devils notion. There could certainly be a limiting factor to it. And if the king of devils scenario turned out to be the case, I'd be looking forward to such a limiting factor.
I'm going to spam this point since my gut says I haven't conveyed this point.

Let's try this: how much from ALL high school classes, middle school classes, or even elementary classes can you remember? This is in regards to minuscule details. That's what you are asking for from a physical standpoint. And that is why it seems so outrageous to me.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
More like we only see him after the time skip. It's not like we know whether or not Teach partied before or after he had mastered his gura gura abilities.
This is actually my point. Blackbeard is somewhat ghetto in his look. He purposefully tries to look normal and unflashy. It is only after he achieves the seemingly impossible that he celebrates and goes all extravagant. I would argue Blackbeard in Impel Down is at a normal New World captain level of appearance.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
But beyond that, the "best" fruti abilities you're talking about is the suke suke no mi?
No, this was literal with everything but the suke suke abilities. The female has a legendary zoan that is both useful and has to have unique abilities that are strong. I think that's all we were shown from that brief scene. I'm assuming everyone else has a legendary fruit ability.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
And by suggesting he cares about his subordinates, are you referring to the time he caused a small earthquake at his island as a warnign to Moria? Or are you referring to him trying to recruit Moria after he rampaged on his island and attacked Teach's "nakama"? Teach views his crewmates as mere tools. The level 6 inmates was the best way to quickly gain many powerful tools at the same time and him equipping them with devil fruit abilities is only an attampt to strengthen said tools. I don't think he'd bat even an eyelid if he saw fit to use the gura gura abilities close to his crewmates as long as it provided him even the smallest benefit. That's just Teach's core personality, manipulative.
Although I agree with the overall analysis of Blackbeard's personality, this is contradicted by plot armor. Yonkou/admiral level executives are necessary to become Pirate King. I made the thread on how someone with a great supporting ability allows for the defeat of a Yonkou/admiral in a 2v1. Even Blackbeard with mastery of all fruit abilities still easily gets defeated by a 2v1 against Luffy and Zoro (end of series combat capabilities). Haki guarantees damage and an easy win for Luffy and Zoro.

Strong executives are a necessity and at least the original execs already have emotional ties to Blackbeard. He trusts them to watch his back in Jaya and willingly wants them around/to travel with them during his vacation from his role in Whitebeard's crew.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
What I'm hoping for during this conversation is to see how you explain the issues that accompany the notion an existence akin to the king of devils, that's all.
What exactly is the question? I'm not getting a clear question here.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
If you're going to the trouble of setting a standard for opinions, make sure to apply it to your own too mate. What is up with the double standard?
Where is your proof of asking directly what you want to know? Again, you do not type everything you think you do. I'm not going to miss a tag if there is only 1-2 per post.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
First of all, if it wasn't clear at the start, I'll say once more that both options are merely speculation. I favor one over the other and I'd be more than happy to explain my reasoning but that's as far as I'll go. If you want to listen to it, awesome. If you can somehow disprove it with solid facts, again, awesome. If we can both listen to each other's opinions to broaden our horizon's on the subject and simply agree to disagree, superb. That's the long and short of it. If you think I'm trying to convince you of something and run with either explanation, you're mistaken.
And we 100% agree on all of this. Which is exactly why I only focus on the bridging question/bridging aspect once I figure it out. Again, if you ever have something you think is key, emphasize it and most importantly state it directly with a question. I ask much more questions than you do in all of these discussions.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
In any case, to get back to the double standards. First of all, anything new is B.S? So when Garp could hit Luffy back at Water 7, before haki had become known, that was B.S? Just because an explanation hasn't been revealed yet, it makes it B.S? I don't think so at the very least.
Ah, this helps. I'm just going to ignore this entire section because you are perceiving an attack on the B.S. comment in the quoted part. That is in regards to ODA. NOT you. I am ALWAYS going to get pissed off at Oda. Same aspect of me only swearing at Oda. That should make this part clear.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
due to it being a natural weakness.
I am going to focus on this part first. This is my gripe. It might happen later, but the rest of the response looks kinda short. I want an explanation on this part. I see nothing but contradictions with "natural weakness". This post is already super long, so I think requoting stuff on how much breadcrumbs go into proving and reinforcing the legitimate natural weakness of the ocean and water is 100% going to have a detrimental effect.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
1) The attribute of darkness being responsible, either due to is skillset

2) The yami yami no mi being the king of the devils.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong @seiryu , but you said so yourself that BOTH options are currenty open, no?
If we go with this, yes, I would agree for the most part. I have a hard time visualizing what option one is without some sort of explanation. I don't see how it ties all the other breadcrumbs together. So without this, I only see them as 1A and 1B.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
For starters, my answer to your question about is simple, because Teach is only touching a small part of Ace's body.
And Ace IMMEDIATELY panics. Ace looking scared is not the norm. Ace knew something was wrong, but did not know what it was. He even comments after taking damage that he never thought his logia could be negated/was not expecting to take the physical blow.

FYI, I'm NOT seeing my question answered Yuz. I haven't used my tag so probably the right place for it here @Yuuzume How exactly does the mechanics of option one work? Paint a clear picture on how this is different from the mechanics of the king of all devils? I will 100% call B.S. without an explanation. It reads like avoiding the bridging question.

I thought I made it clear, and you even said you would address it later, but I am not seeing an explanation of how it works.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Did Luffy collapse with kairoseki handcuffs on? Was Law incapaciated when he was pierced by a kairoseki nail? The answer would be no.
Context is being skewed quite a bit. Luffy struggles initially with the partial kairouseki. Law WAS significantly incapacitated. He had to LIMP his way away. He was shot IN THE ARM. How does an arm would affect running?

So the answer is yes. And that's where my frustration will come out because there is direct contradiction. I can look over these sorts of things if the main question is being answered, but I'm getting close to the end of the post.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
That's because the surface of the body covered was minimal so the effects were also minimal, enough to suppress one's devil to a good extend but not enough to weaken them to the point of collapse.
This is true for Luffy and the watered down kairouseki (but only after the boost to physical capabilities). It is not true of Law and it is not true of Luffy prior to the physical training/getting stronger.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
1) What am I missing on the B.S aspect? Why is the king of devils explanation, which is something new, not B.S while the other is?
Hopefully the above part on the follow up. My memory was right and I asked multiple times already. This only reads like you are running away from explaining "how?" I have asked this over and over, and with tags. I have zero idea on how to make it more clear on asking for an explanation on how you think it works. Hopefully the above does the trick on getting an explanation on the mechanics you are thinking. And again, this is matches the already confirmed pattern of you thinking you type something but it is not present. I'm going to tag and repeat key questions, and I'm 100% fine and WANT the same of me. You asking key questions should make all of these discussions go faster.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
2) Why is the Teach VS Ace fight not a problem for you when going with the king of the devils aspect?
Wait, what?! You have me completely lost here. I'm 10-billion percent on my bias of the king of the devils as the most likely explanation. Where do I say anything to contradict this?

Just in case: as soon as Blackbeard makes any contact with Ace, the yami yami devil subdues the mera mera devil and the complete and absolute negation occurs. In theory, even a hair of Blackbeard touching a hair on Ace is enough for this to happen.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
My explanation as to why Teach touching a small part of one's body doesn't affect them immensly is as I described above.
This helps a lot. No, I do not, 100% do not have a clear picture of the mechanics in my head.




How does this work?





Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
2) Why is the Teach VS Ace fight not a problem for you when going with the king of the devils aspect? The user's body is connected with the devil while the user is alive. That's why the user is physically affected when exposed to the devils' weaknesses like kairoseki and seawater, no? My explanation as to why Teach touching a small part of one's body doesn't affect them immensly is as I described above. How would you explain the same situation with the king of the devils aspect in mind? If the yami yami no mi is the king of the devils, it could completely supress the opposing devil, no? Even with the slightest tough, the devil could utterly and throughly supressed and the user would be left with barely enough strenth to move around. Do you think there's a limiting factor to the king of the devil's influence ove other devils like I've suggested before? And if you do, what do you think it is?
K, good. My read on the opening sentence/question was correct. Directly quote me on what led you to believe this. I trust everything I type is extremely consistent. My memory is extremely consistent as well. Just in case: where did I contradict myself on the mechanics of the Ace vs. Blackbeard fight?
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
It's part of its inherent abilities.
This is not a legitimate answer in my mind. This is "magic on magic". This is the "manga magic and manga logic" copout that Oda DOES NOT use (unless B.S. of course). Every devil essentially only has one magical ability. Darkness cannot be a "natural weakness" because of all the previous stuff I posted. There has to be something separate. This is why I only view the "two options" as 1A and 1B. There is not alternative explanation as to how it works.

This is the facade of complexity in a nutshell. Oda ASTRONOMICALLY plans things out more than even you give him credit for. EVERY LITTLE breadcrumb normally fits perfectly together. Frog-Carrot B.S. was absolute B.S. because it was the first direct contradiction to Oda's literary perfection.

Unless you can make all the breadcrumbs fit together, it is an incomplete theory. I have zero problems with incomplete theories...but they are now astronomically less likely to occur. That is the reality if B.S. is kept to a minimum.

So hopefully all of this clears up my end. I have zero problems ripping teeth out to get the answer I'm looking for. And per my norm, all breadcrumbs only point in one direction. The universal negation has nothing to do with darkness alone. If not, the pika pika abilities should do the opposite and unite all fruit abilities innately.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
At least as far as the first explanation goes (not the devil fruit king one), I'm suggesting that it's part of the yami yami no mi's inherent abilities. Asking me why the yami yami no mi can negate devil fruits is like asking me why the mera mera no mi can produce flames. It's part of its inherent abilities. Whether that's possible thanks to a skill or the properties of darkness itself, either is fine. Rather, even if it's due to the yami yami no mi being the king of the devils, that's fine too (though I'd like other things answered and this is what this discussion is about on my end). I never questioned how it's possible for the king of the devils to subdue other devils or how a devil could even be something akin to a king of its "race" in the first place. That's because both explanations are essentially a new set of rules. Whether those are the existence of the king of devils and the inherent abilities such an existence has or the inherent abilities of the yami yami no mi. That's the answer I can give you but if it's not acceptable, I'd like to ask you as well, how would the king of devils be able to subdue other devils? If the answer is "because it's the king" or "magic", then you shouldn't have an issue with how the yami yami no mi's inherent skills or the darkness' inherent attribute allow for the negation of devil fruit abilities either.
Perfect. We have bridging questions from your side. If you had a question from earlier, ask it earlier. It definitely sounds like it was already present.

Just in case the above doesn't do it: my bias is that all devils are roughly about the same in terms of "physical capabilities". Even a useless ability like Chopper's hito hito no mi (or whatever it is called) is not all that different in terms of strength of Big Mom's soul soul akuma or the gura gura akuma. ONLY the yami yami akuma is physically stronger and is thus able to immediately subdue any other devil. It is immediately upon any contact (including hair to hair), because of the universality of the strength difference.

Also just in case, this is different from the magical powers each devil has. In the soul/spirit realm, devils cannot use their magical powers on each other. This would make the soul/spirit world the same as they physical world where we have tons and tons of tiers of devil rankings. Per my bias, there is only the yami yami devil and everyone else on the same level.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
So you're telling me that Teach absolutely wanted to have only the yami yami no mi for his first devil fruit because he heard it was the strongest? Not because he knew that he could steal devil fruit abilities with it? A piece of information that only he seemed to be aware of.
No, obviously anyone with the encyclopedia would know the yami yami abilities are the strongest. Ah, so I actually do agree with the previous part of "luck" mentioned earlier. Yes, the master plan was changed and only upon the experimentation. My bias is that the encyclopedia does NOT have many details on the abilities for fruit abilities.

If it did, then that creates plot holes for everyone to have Blackbeard's plan. Moreover, if we are going to downgrade "luck", Luffy is a failure of a main character. Every...single...arc has major luck on his side. What's wrong with his nemesis only having one instance of luck? Everything else is a perfect master plan. Even without the shortcut, he just has to train longer with his yami yami abilities to follow through with the original masterplan. Oda's "5 year plan" did not include Shanks losing his arm, or having Amazon Lily after the Marineford War. Key updates become integral. I should 10-billion percent be fluid and adaptable with what I'm saying (but only if it can be fully supported). And I will 100% be unbending otherwise.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Because it's fine if you're telling me that. There's certainly the possibility that Teach simply wanted the yami yami no mi because it was the strongest and simply lucked out when he found out he could steal devil fruit abilities with it. Then he lucked out again when he found it on Whitebeard's ship. And I assume he lucked out during his fight with Shanks as well? Cause Shanks is a haki prodigy, hard to believe that Teach, without part of Xebec's soul, could content with him. That's fine as an answer but I don't agree with it. I think every action Teach has taken has been calculated down to the details, and the best explanation as to how that was possible, for me, is Marco's theory.
And this should be contradictions. What does luck have to do with physical capabilities? The masterplan of being on Whitebeard's crew is the rational and best choice. It is the correct masterplan. I know 10-billion percent I said so myself that Blackbeard gets lucky that the first prominent pirate to visit his island upon developing the foundation of the masterplan is Whitebeard, but this is just for plot simplicity. Oda could easily add a panel or page and have Blackbeard join a smaller pirate crew first, but ask to join Whitebeard later (Whitebeard being sympathetic to orphans does not change).

In terms of Xebec's soul: let's run with it. How exactly does Oda explain Xebec's soul remaining in the physical world? Big Mom is not there when Xebec dies. With Xebec dying, his soul can only be added lifespan for Big Mom per my bias on how her fruit works. My bias is that she doesn't have her awakening at that point in time because she is lower ranking than Whitebeard (Whitebeard had some notoriety, but Kaidou and Big Mom were implied to have a lot less, and this is per New World standards since they were all already infamous).

Again, I astronomically nitpick because there are flaws that require Oda to add a completely new layer to keep connectivity/believability. The theories that are void of this are guaranteed to be on the right track.

I have zero problem discussing "unlikely" theories. I will have a problem when people imply it is the most likely to occur. And that is the basis of "all breadcrumbs only point in one direction"...because it is true. Everything else requires an additional layer of plot armor to occur. Of course, 10-billion percent it can occur. Oda purposefully avoids adding new layers because it allows room for misinterpretation. The facade of complexity is the reality of how the literary perfection works. And it sure as hell ain't no coincidence that things are going to relative crap right now in the manga (I really want to say another FU Oda right now...Momo stuff that does not appear to be B.S. has me pissed off => and primarily because it directly reflects Oda REGRESSING in his morals. He is back to his pro-men/pro-masculinity after several attempts to be pro-gender equality). These are all complete failures to me.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
I answered this above.
Where? How? I read nothing to prove the "natural enemy" aspect. This is far enough from the first tag that visual emphasis is probably good enough @Yuuzume How does the "natural enemy" aspect work? Where was that explained? Or if this is referring to answering some other aspect, what part was answered? I'm hopefully making it clear that the mechanics on how option 1 differs from option 2 is the only thing I'm asking about. And if it is dependent on adding a new layer to keep connectivity/believability, then I made my point that it is less likely to occur.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Again, I've answered this. Teach only touched a small part of the body so the result is miniscule. Similar to how Law was barely affected physically by the Kairoseki nail and could even escape Hawkins' onslaught.
Ah, so this helps. The minuscule touch. So, I'm going to follow up on if you do have an explanation other than the dependence on adding a new variable. We should have bridged the other parts.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
I'm more curious about why you think the subjugation of the king of devils doesn't affect the user physically. After all, the devil is connected with the user's body.
FYI open with the answer to key questions. If your "answer" is buried in the middle of a whole section of a response, does that look like an answer? And we'll see if my gut reaction stuff was good enough.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Oh, it is definitely as you say. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I disagreed with this. Weakening one's devil certainly weaken's the user's body as well. My point was that you should forget the middle point that is the devil. It's not that more kairoseki was needed for Big Mom cause she's physically stronger. It's most likely because she's "bigger" so a chain which could cover half of Luffy's body would only cover a small part of Big Mom's body. And beyond that, her devil could simply even be stronger, possibly through an awakening. What is certain is that kairoseki doesn't directly affect one's physical condition, so one's physical condition shouldn't matter on how much kairoseki is needed to subdue them.
AHHHHHHH....

I NEED an explanation on the mechanics because the black and white mechanics of the king of devils is how the black and white results occur. The living contradictions is here too in that kairouseki has a black and white effect. Even for Big Mom there is a SIGNIFICANT weakening for physical, mental, haki, everything. However, Yonkou/admiral level is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO high that they can still fight off/use defensive busoushoku.

So we do 100% agree that the wrapping of Big Mom in Udon is 10-billion percent for volume and percent body coverage. Big Mom should be vulnerable here. She only talks big because she knows Kaidou would get pissed if Queen killed her there. It's a poker bluff.

I would not argue against the mechanics that an awakened akuma is "bigger" or "stronger" (I honestly never thought of that => my bias is the magic aspect and the magic is only present in the physical realm and not the spirit realm).

However, this should emphasize the 99.99999% agreement. It is only the missing breadcrumbs that skews things. And that goes for all fans.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Okay, sorry for the double tag here but I just want to be frank about this and ask directly. No offense intended, I'm sincerely curious what's up and why the situation is as it is.

Are you even interested in listening to my opinion? And this is a sincere question. We've reached the point where I can count the opinions I've shared with you, which you haven't called B.S, with my fingers.
I'm going to lose patience when the bridging question is ignored multiple times. Same thing almost happened here. You put your answer in the middle of a different tangent. How am I supposed to read it as the answer when a NEW tangent is introduced before it?

I should make my side very clear, so ask questions just like how I ask you questions. This is actually a great start here because what I'm reading is you taking "attacks" when most of it is ODA B.S.

The ONLY times I am calling B.S. for you, Marco, or theories (off the top of my head), is an instance like this where I specifically say: "let's run with the B.S.". I say this because it is going to lead to the need to add a new layer/variable to maintain connectivity/believability.

Maybe I do need to be blunt. I'm already seeing the end point for most of these discussions. All that's changed is that I figured out how to minimize your perception of attacks when I "rip apart" all of the things that are contradicting breadcrumbs or skewed on the context of key scenes. All of us have biases, and the hard part is that it is physically impossible for one person so keep track of all of the breadcrumbs of 24ish years of plot.

It is the rare occurrence, but excellent theories do come out (the combined theory), but I'm biased to say the cliche of iron sharpens iron. People thinking it's OK to put illogical crap would not result in the high quality theories we get and thankfully, we have gotten high volume of really good to great theories recently. I 10-billion percent know that's how the universe/human nature works. People are all lazy, and I'm biased to say I'm the laziest person in the entire world. However, I'm willing to work damn hard (but only to get to be lazy later).
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
At this point, you seem to be unable to go without calling my opinions B.S multiple times per comment, just for being different than yours. You've reached the point where you don't even wait for an explanation and just go all "Explain this B.S Yuz" the moment you see something different than what you want to hear. I'm not offended but I'm not keen on having to deal with it either.

So I'm asking directly, do you not want to hear my opinion mate? If you don't, absolutely no offense taken. I still respect your opinion either way. But if this is just about you trying to force feed me an opinion, I'll just save us both the trouble and tell you no thanks directly. If you do want to hear them, then where is this whole "B.S" thing coming from? Cause this isn't being direct anymore, it's seems more like being condescending.
If it wasn't clear: I'm going to take MAJOR offense to "ignoring of the bridging" question/content. Again...your answer was a hidden answer. If I need to put the collection together, I can list out all the instances of you thinking you type something when it isn't there.

And these are searching with word find. 100% it did not come up.

Put yourself in my shoes. If you asked the same question, repeatedly, and with tags, how would you react? I've been doing this for every single long discussion, so I'm not going to have much patience since we mutually agreed on the mechanics of how to go about bridging. Yes, we 10-billion percent have progress with you asking more questions. You do need to work on organization. Just answer the question first. I already know other answers were completely left off because of this pattern of putting the answer elsewhere. Normally it isn't in the middle though like this time.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
In any case, I'll get back to the comment. First of all, do you think Kaido had to have been restrained? He's been "captured" by the marines so many times that it's not believeable for it to have been against his will. He wanted to die and wanted to be there.
10-billion percent he was restrained. Kaidou only wants to self-suicide. There is the plot armor of just jumping into an ocean or body of water large enough to drown himself, but he always fights his way out of any situation. He's the strongest in the world, so he backs it up.

Prior to Oda B.S. expanding Kaidou's crew astronomically, it made sense that Kaidou had to fight his way out of the 19+ defeats/captures. He only had Jack to save him, but with the primary execs, Tobi Roppou, Numbers, etc. this makes it unbelievable that Kaidou doesn't have the largest territory. The 100 Beast crew was the second strongest after the Red Hair crew after Whitebeard's death.

You said this: It's not that Big Mom and Kaido are so physically strong that more Kairoseki is needed to restrain them. It's that their body is different from Luffy's (most likely a matter of size). So the fact that more kairoseki was needed to restrain Big Mom doesn't mean she should be strong enough to knock out Luffy with one punch, and neither should Kaido. I'll repeat myself but physique just doesn't play that big a role in my eyes. That's because for now, it hasn't been suggested to play that much of a role."
"Physique just doesn't play that big a role in my eyes"? Is Luffy, Kaidou, or Big Mom displaying the ability to destroy/change HALF of Punk Hazard? Yonkou weakening, 10-billion percent. Physical capabilities is not a significant factor ONLY if you are astronomically decreasing what true Yonkou/admiral capabilities are. This goes back to the numbers. Even with B.S. additions, Luffy is still far from winning...but Oda is going to force feed a Kaidou defeat and likely very soon.

So let me paint a clearer picture for Kaidou/Big Mom: do you think Kaidou and Big Mom can readily be killed if they are covered in 100 chains of pure kairouseki? This is Big Mom on Queen's ship after Udon.
Yuuzume wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:27 pm
Either way, I'm not seeing the point of this question. Wasn't kairoseki weakening one's physique something we agreed on? Kairoseki weakenes them physically, just not enough for them to be unable to move or die through normal means. I'd say this is mostly in virtue of their size, not their physique. Are you suggesting that having a strong body negates or lessens the effects of kairoseki? That wouldn't make sense to me cause kairoseki works directly on one's devil and that in turn weakens their body. It's not their body that is affected directly so it's condition shouldn't affect one's resistence towards kairoseki.
I said this directly in the past. Kaidou, Big Mom, Whitebeard, etc. are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo strong that they literally blunt the effect of pure kairouseki (unless it is massive volume).

Isn't the devil universally connected to EVERY part of the user?

There has to be a direct connection between an ability user's body and the devil constantly. And thus this does directly tie to the previous big question in that there has to be a MAJOR explanation for the absolute negation. It cannot be just "magic".

I'm going to call it B.S. if there are multiple layers of disconnect or direct contradiction with what I'm reading. Read for context if I'm calling it Oda B.S. And if I'm sounding irritated, it means the bridging aspect isn't getting clearly addressed.


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