Two Types of Kenbunshoku Haki! Shanks' True Strength!

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Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:03 am
Well, that'd be foresight. I think the most we'll get from mantra that approaches "advanced" level is the aura visualization of Usopp (perhaps somehow enhanced) over a wide range.
Woah...kk. I really think we need to follow this tangent. Aura visualization is basic since this is what Usopp awakens.

The big problem/contradiction in my mind is that the primary benefit/usage of mantra is the mind reading. Any mantra user knows what the opponent is going to do next...how is this different from foresight kenbunshoku? Mantra is foresight kenbunshoku PLUS area awareness, emotional/wellbeing tracking (Momo and Aisa knowing the emotional and physical status of people), and probably more stuff too.

We are not shown what happens in the brain of a mantra user, but I expect it to be the exact same as foresight kenbunshoku.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:03 am
Well, I don't disagree with you connecting it with eye blackening of course. But as I'm categorizing kenbunshoku into mantra and foresight instead, I personally attribute it to mantra. Admittedly, like I say above, I think it'll be akin to something of an "advanced" version of mantra. I doubt the distinction will be as clear cut as it was with foresight but based on the effects, it sounds like an advanced application of mantra to me.
Hopefully the above addresses this. I see a jump to "advanced" with mantra. So if "advanced" is foresight kenbunshoku, by definition mantra has to be in the same category. If we are going with a spectrum, mantra is slightly higher than foresight kenbunshoku, but it is definitely in the same category (and below whatever new thing Oda has in mind soon).
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:03 am
I don't see what his bounty has to do with anything to be honest. After he ate his devil fruit, he had one of the best, if not THE best, at processing information. The only one who could possibly rival him in that would be, contrary to his speech patterns, Kizaru. His light fruit reminds me a bit of Heike from Code Breaker, who had similar abilities and whose brain was basically a supercomputer. In any case, that ability came about due to his devil fruit, not his skill level in any other area. I do think he could have managed to raise his bounty if he had continued adventuring and wrecking havoc (not by much though, admittedly) but role playing as god at Skypiea seems to have put a stop to his adventures. It's not quite the same as the Shichibukai but in a sense, his bounty also "froze" the moment he stopped adventuring and bothering people under the world government's / Marine's protection (since I don't think their juristiction extends to sky islands, or at the very least to Skypiea).

Anyway, his bounty doesn't really matter since it essentially froze but compared to others, he really is a weakling in general. That doesn't affect his ability to process information in any way though.
Big picture. The entire plot (literally). Oda literally only shows new powers once the Mugiwara crew is involved. Moreover, he keeps all enemies compartmentalized for their relevance to that point in the plot. This is 100% contradicted by the difference between Yonkou/admiral level being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above EVERYONE else. Enel 100% cannot be the absolute peak of brain capacity. That literally contradicts Oda's style.

Even when a Yonkou or admiral is presented in the plot, we don't see them fighting seriously. Even Whitebeard and Shanks clashing is nothing more than a friendly hello. Roger and Whitebeard is probably going to be this as well.

Enel is pretty dumb (and this is coming from an Eminem fan). He is overly dependent on his mantra and doesn't have much plans/strategy. ALL the Yonkou have shown dramatically greater strategy, which directly reflects greater information processing. Enel is only playing checkers with Yonkou showing they are playing chess.

I'm reading a devil fruit bias with Enel and Kizaru. This does overlap with shown usages like Doffy sewing his damage from Gamma Knife back together. But I'm biased to say that only comes with mastery of one's fruit abilities or maybe only with an awakening. I 100% do not disagree with the concept behind what you are saying. I'm saying Enel does not display usage of a "super brain" outside of his mantra talent. How does this explain Aisa? She has the EXACT same range as Enel without any electricity benefit. Talent is talent and Enel would have to display a second or third aspect of analysis, capability, strategy, etc. if he were actually using the fruit ability to boost his mantra range...which now makes Aisa even more superhuman. I have to think this bridges this aspect.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:03 am
Takes away an arm to fight with? They'd carry the body after killing them so why would they be fighting? If they managed to kill their target, that'd be "mission accomplished, waiting for extraction" right there. They'd only need to flee, not fight.

Because they all would have to return to their base after one person? Well yeah, how many should they kill? Each person can only have one devil fruit ability so they'd run after killing their target. Why bother killing 2 people when you can only have 1 ability? Even if it was for another crewmate, I don't see Teach's crew as the sort who'd risk their lives or even take such risks for one another. So each person kills the user with the ability they want and take them back to Teach. That seems feasible to me.
I think you are making Blackbeard's plan too small. Only gathering 9 other fruit abilities isn't much of an ability hunt. The two main options in my mind is that Oda is going to allow Blackbeard infinite abilities or he is having the "Kaidou plan". Blackbeard presumably has stronger underlings (more notoriety from the world seeing he has the two strongest fruit abilities) and he is gathering fruit abilities that are all above zoan abilities (which already is an upgrade over SMILE). The one exception is Shiryuu's ability and I HAVE to think you agree basic kenbunshoku makes this ability 100% useless.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:03 am
Okay, question. Why would one have to kill new world powerhouses? I mean, even if we assume that those are the only targets, there are still people like Kaido and Big Mom who could easily hunt them. Actually, Kaido could have easily taken Hawkins', Apoo's and Kid's fruits if stealing them was so easy. Or rather, forget them. Kaido could have even stolen Toki's devil fruit ability. So no, I don't think it's that simple. But let me circle back to my question. Why are new world powerhouses the only possible targets? There are weakling devil fruit users that many people could hunt. How hard do you think it would have been for anyone to have hunted down Wapol to get their hands on the Wapometal (or whatever it would have been called if Wapol had been hunted down). What about any executive from Baroque Works? I'd say they'd be easy prey as well. Many people could go on an ability hunt but the most likely canditate isn't any lone pirate crew, it's the world government. In any case, I think that if stealing abilites was so simple, many people could have and would have become devil fruit hunters.
The entire plot shows that the strongest fruit abilities are concentrated in the New World. Contextually even the gomu gomu no mi was stolen in the New World (Shanks is already Yonkou level per Oda just in case). It is NOT a contradiction that devil fruits are extremely rare in all the Blues, but common place in the Grand Line, and especially in the New World.

Context implies Toki isn't dead. Even overlooking this aspect, Oda tried to cover this up by making Kaidou think Toki's abilities are not real until the current plot time and Orochi gets confirmation that some of the Scabbards were sent forward in the future.

Excluding Kid (who was meant to be mentally broken and forced into being an underling anyway), why would Kaidou kill an underling who is stronger than any Waiter? Kid, Apoo, and Hawkins are all stronger than any Waiter, even without their fruit abilities. IF Kaidou had a stronger Waiter, then your thought process makes sense.

I feel I adequately addressed the question and can expand as needed...but this makes me want to use my tag @Yuuzume how do you explain what we are shown on Punk Hazard with whatever Caesar's pet's name was? If you don't think it is that simple, why did Oda show us that? How does it work then?

Just in case: plot armor comes to mind as to why there aren't people abusing this loophole more. And per the above, even the Kaidou examples are all fully explained by the Waiters being too weak. All the Tobi Roppou are former captains/former CP9 with Who's Who so they all have their own fruit abilities already. This is why they have their rank. This is why Apoo is given a rank above Gifters.

REALLY?! Wapol?!?! That gets a c'mon from me. Unless he is eating nothing but weapons made by Wano Kuni craftsman, his fruit ability is quite weak. He is a relatively strong person and this does match his oversized human size.

Who among Baroque Works had a powerhouse fruit ability? Even Mr. 1 doesn't seem like top 25, maybe even top 50ish fruit abilities. Actually it probably is over 50 with all the logia we have already. This ties to the Enel discussion. Everyone is always in the perfect point to match the current levels of the Mugiwara crew. There has been a steady increase in combat capabilities, and Oda has previously properly shown us how big the gap to Yonkou/admiral level is. So if anything, fruit abilities have a SIMILAR jump.

Oh...maybe I'm missing a major potential bridge...it was stated that Blackbeard was only after the BEST abilities. This is why Shiryuu is such a stupid and B.S. joke. It makes Zoro's fight anticlimactic. The goal is to power up his crew maximally. They have zero concern over weak abilities (with the exception of the suke suke abilities). This is only strong if aura visualization does not exist...but it does.
Yuuzume wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:03 am
For the reasons I've mentioned before. If it were so simple, many people would be doing it, not just Teach.
Glad I used my tag...I'm quite curious now. Even without the answer: plot armor. And Oda already has astronomically more breadcrumbs already in place to explain what you asked about.


Back to the blind Oda faith (until the next B.S. of course).
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seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
Woah...kk. I really think we need to follow this tangent. Aura visualization is basic since this is what Usopp awakens.

The big problem/contradiction in my mind is that the primary benefit/usage of mantra is the mind reading. Any mantra user knows what the opponent is going to do next...how is this different from foresight kenbunshoku? Mantra is foresight kenbunshoku PLUS area awareness, emotional/wellbeing tracking (Momo and Aisa knowing the emotional and physical status of people), and probably more stuff too.

We are not shown what happens in the brain of a mantra user, but I expect it to be the exact same as foresight kenbunshoku.
seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
Hopefully the above addresses this. I see a jump to "advanced" with mantra. So if "advanced" is foresight kenbunshoku, by definition mantra has to be in the same category. If we are going with a spectrum, mantra is slightly higher than foresight kenbunshoku, but it is definitely in the same category (and below whatever new thing Oda has in mind soon).
Yeah, aura visualization is a basic application and I still think it's the closest think we'll get to "advanced" kenbunshoku as far as mantra goes. Well, perhaps an improvement on it would be for experienced mantra users to be capable of seeing their target as clear as if they were next to them instead of just as aura figures. Still, do I think mantra is foresight + area awareness, etc? Of course not, that would be contradictory to the theory itself. Predicting your opponents next move vaguely (kick to the middle right) is one of kenbunshoku haki's abilities in general. Whether it's mantra or foresight, both can do it. The difference is, foresight does it better. Foresight allows the user to see further into the future and see the target's future actions with even better clarity.

Mantra on the other hand sacrifices that kind of foresight in favor of increased range. This brings us back to the building example. Can someone be both a tall and a wide building? Absolutely. But that's only if they're talented and train both types of kenbunshoku. For most users who can't spare talent or time to train both and have to pick on, it's usually based on their fighting style. Close combat fighters benefit more from foresight and snipers benefit more from mantra.

If you want to suggest that kenbunshoku is one dimensional and its progress it something akin to: basic kenbunshoku -> foresight -> mantra, of course I have nothing against it. But based on its abilities, I view kenbunshoku as something two dimensional, hence why I made a theory to properly point out said two dimensions. I suppose this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
Big picture. The entire plot (literally). Oda literally only shows new powers once the Mugiwara crew is involved. Moreover, he keeps all enemies compartmentalized for their relevance to that point in the plot. This is 100% contradicted by the difference between Yonkou/admiral level being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above EVERYONE else. Enel 100% cannot be the absolute peak of brain capacity. That literally contradicts Oda's style.

Even when a Yonkou or admiral is presented in the plot, we don't see them fighting seriously. Even Whitebeard and Shanks clashing is nothing more than a friendly hello. Roger and Whitebeard is probably going to be this as well.

Enel is pretty dumb (and this is coming from an Eminem fan). He is overly dependent on his mantra and doesn't have much plans/strategy. ALL the Yonkou have shown dramatically greater strategy, which directly reflects greater information processing. Enel is only playing checkers with Yonkou showing they are playing chess.

I'm reading a devil fruit bias with Enel and Kizaru. This does overlap with shown usages like Doffy sewing his damage from Gamma Knife back together. But I'm biased to say that only comes with mastery of one's fruit abilities or maybe only with an awakening. I 100% do not disagree with the concept behind what you are saying. I'm saying Enel does not display usage of a "super brain" outside of his mantra talent. How does this explain Aisa? She has the EXACT same range as Enel without any electricity benefit. Talent is talent and Enel would have to display a second or third aspect of analysis, capability, strategy, etc. if he were actually using the fruit ability to boost his mantra range...which now makes Aisa even more superhuman. I have to think this bridges this aspect.
I still don't see what someone's "level" have to do with this. As far as I know, a high level of strength in the One Piece world doesn't boost someone's brain capacity. Enel's brain capacity was boosted thanks to his devil fruit, it wasn't his haki or any other part of his skill set. Yeah, Enel is way weaker than an admiral, a supernova, a yonko, etc. But none of them have any way to boost their brain capacity ( except for Kizaru, possibly ) so their "info processing skills" are on par with a normal human's, with some being better than others. Now, if you're suggesting that someone's power level somehow affects their brain capacity, like the brain blackening / coating you have suggested before, that's quite fine. In that case, I'd get why Enel's brain capacity would look sub par. However, as brain blackening / coating is something I don't agree with, he (and possibly Kizaru) is the best, as far as information processing goes, for me.

By the way, I don't really mind whether his mantra range was increased thanks to his devil fruit or not, it wasn't a huge distance anyway with even Van Augur having a longer mantra range. The aspect he devil fruit boosted the most was his info processing, which allowed him to be able to actively monitor what most people at Skypiea do and say. Aisa's range is certainly impressive, considering her age and lack of haki training but that has to do purely with kenbunshoku. Actively monitoring what almost everyone on an entire island is saying, all the time, is something only Enel has been show to be capable of so far.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
I think you are making Blackbeard's plan too small. Only gathering 9 other fruit abilities isn't much of an ability hunt. The two main options in my mind is that Oda is going to allow Blackbeard infinite abilities or he is having the "Kaidou plan". Blackbeard presumably has stronger underlings (more notoriety from the world seeing he has the two strongest fruit abilities) and he is gathering fruit abilities that are all above zoan abilities (which already is an upgrade over SMILE). The one exception is Shiryuu's ability and I HAVE to think you agree basic kenbunshoku makes this ability 100% useless.
Why just 9? Sure, the strongest 9 go to his devision captains. But he could get as many devil fruits as he wants and give them to lower ranked underlings. Or rather, with him having taken Whitebeard's place, it wouldn't be too surprising for him to add more divisions, and in turn division captains, to his fleet. Sure, the "core" group will most likely end up being the same number as the strawhats at the time of the fight but Whitebeard had division captains with considerably lower strength than the high ranked ones as well. Well, it can be either, it doesn't really matter. Either way, there's nothing limiting Teach's hunt to 9 fruits.

Side note: Shiryuu's devil fruit choice really was a let down. Personally I liek the limiting factor you have suggested for awakening before, time. But maybe Oda will make it so Teach used some uncommon methods to help awaken his own and his division captains' fruit abilities and the suke suke no mi will be able to hide even from kenbunshoku users. I can't really say anything about it right now but it really was a letdown.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
The entire plot shows that the strongest fruit abilities are concentrated in the New World. Contextually even the gomu gomu no mi was stolen in the New World (Shanks is already Yonkou level per Oda just in case). It is NOT a contradiction that devil fruits are extremely rare in all the Blues, but common place in the Grand Line, and especially in the New World.

Context implies Toki isn't dead. Even overlooking this aspect, Oda tried to cover this up by making Kaidou think Toki's abilities are not real until the current plot time and Orochi gets confirmation that some of the Scabbards were sent forward in the future.

Excluding Kid (who was meant to be mentally broken and forced into being an underling anyway), why would Kaidou kill an underling who is stronger than any Waiter? Kid, Apoo, and Hawkins are all stronger than any Waiter, even without their fruit abilities. IF Kaidou had a stronger Waiter, then your thought process makes sense.

I feel I adequately addressed the question and can expand as needed...but this makes me want to use my tag @Yuuzume how do you explain what we are shown on Punk Hazard with whatever Caesar's pet's name was? If you don't think it is that simple, why did Oda show us that? How does it work then?

Just in case: plot armor comes to mind as to why there aren't people abusing this loophole more. And per the above, even the Kaidou examples are all fully explained by the Waiters being too weak. All the Tobi Roppou are former captains/former CP9 with Who's Who so they all have their own fruit abilities already. This is why they have their rank. This is why Apoo is given a rank above Gifters.

REALLY?! Wapol?!?! That gets a c'mon from me. Unless he is eating nothing but weapons made by Wano Kuni craftsman, his fruit ability is quite weak. He is a relatively strong person and this does match his oversized human size.

Who among Baroque Works had a powerhouse fruit ability? Even Mr. 1 doesn't seem like top 25, maybe even top 50ish fruit abilities. Actually it probably is over 50 with all the logia we have already. This ties to the Enel discussion. Everyone is always in the perfect point to match the current levels of the Mugiwara crew. There has been a steady increase in combat capabilities, and Oda has previously properly shown us how big the gap to Yonkou/admiral level is. So if anything, fruit abilities have a SIMILAR jump.

Oh...maybe I'm missing a major potential bridge...it was stated that Blackbeard was only after the BEST abilities. This is why Shiryuu is such a stupid and B.S. joke. It makes Zoro's fight anticlimactic. The goal is to power up his crew maximally. They have zero concern over weak abilities (with the exception of the suke suke abilities). This is only strong if aura visualization does not exist...but it does.
For starters, like I siad previously, I mentioned Wapol not for his strength but for his fruit's ability to produce the metal Franky used to make Franky shogun. Teach seemingy doesn't have someone to utilize it the same way as Franky (although he'd still be able to use it as top tier metal) but what about the World Government / Marines? They have the person who made the blueprints Franky gained inspiration from. If Vegapunk had access to an unlimited amount of free Wapometal, the sky would be the limit. So if stealing devil fruits was so easy, why would the world government not simply steal Wapol's devil fruit? He's weak so its should be a piece of cake, and I don't think they'd care much about what his country would think. They wouldn't even know who would have killed him anyway.

Putting that aside, I think you're fosucing too much on "strong" devil fruits. Much like Lucci said back at Enies Lobby, it depends on how you use the devil fruit's power and the chance of someone weakening from eating one (if there is such a thing even) is low. And since with devil fruit hunting, you'd know which power you'dbe getting, such a chance is nonexistant. Getting even the most seemingly weak of devil fruits would help a fighter of any level. Sure, it'd be weaker than top tier devil fruits but any ability is better than no ability.

As for the supernovas, I think Kaido just gets a kick out of breaking people's will is all. If they submit it's fine, but if they don't, having someone else eat their fruit would be better than not getting the ability at all. The point stands though, many people would be hunting for devil fruits. Both Big Mom and Kaido along with Teach, the world government and there would even probably be independent devil fruit hunters with specific kairoseki equipment. If devil fruit hunting was as simple as "going to the nearest fruit" anyway. Personally, I think it's not so simple and I suggest such in the Brook theory.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
I feel I adequately addressed the question and can expand as needed...but this makes me want to use my tag @Yuuzume how do you explain what we are shown on Punk Hazard with whatever Caesar's pet's name was? If you don't think it is that simple, why did Oda show us that? How does it work then?
We saw the devil going into the fruit. Putting aside whether it even was the closest one to Smiley or not, that's not really contradictory to what I'm suggesting. Like I say in the Brook theory, the devil has control over the dead user's soul and can choose ANY fruit to "reincarnate" into. No one was near that one so the devil could have simply chosen that one to move into. If there was a person nearby, it wouldn't be as likely.

seiryu wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:29 am
Glad I used my tag...I'm quite curious now. Even without the answer: plot armor. And Oda already has astronomically more breadcrumbs already in place to explain what you asked about.
Honestly, Kaido's biggest plot armor in this regard is the kick he gets out of breaking people's wills. If it wasn't for that, giving the ability even to a waiter would be better than not getting it at all. Still, this isn't a plot hole regarding only Kaido. Big Mom could hunt for devil fruit, the world government could hunt for devil fruits. Random people could hunt for devil fruits. If stealing them was so simple, they wouldn't be as rare as they've been introduced to be. Well, that's just my opinion.


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