Battle- Yonkou vs. Yonkou

seiryu

K, so this actually might be a bit complicated and I can't think of a title that isn't super long. Because all Yonkou/admirals are so close to each other in combat capabilities, it should only take a slight edge to win (example: Aokiji's laid back attitude vs. Akainu's ruthless nature is probably what created the opening for Aokiji to deliver the winning blow that melted Aokiji's leg). So the question of the thread is what level of support would it take for a Yonkou level fighter to have an easy win? Based on the above mechanics, who is fighting who does not matter at all (haki is the equalizing factor anyway and all of these fighters have to have mastered haki ). Ah, just to clarify this essentially is asking for a 2v1, 3v1, 4v1, etc. to make an easy win for the team/group. For me, one example would be Big Mom and Perospero. Based on Perospero not being able to use busoushoku adequately to safe his arm (context implies he had to pretty much depend on creating a candy shield), Perospero has zero physical capabilities that are helpful. However, because he has long range defensive and offensive support capabilities (I'm going to completely exclude the B.S. animated sea-slug that negates the ocean negation of fruit abilities since over half of it is submerged) he makes the perfect support. Big Mom can focus on attacking because Perospero can put up candy shields as needed for any big attack. Even if Perospero doesn't have the offensive busoushoku to cause damage, his ability to restrict movement is key. Perospero just has to create an opening so that Big Mom can deal the winning blow. I'll give another example. If we magically give Luffy his awakening (ah, might have to see if these theories can be carried over) so that he is roughly Yonkou level (i.e. he has the adequate combat capabilities to deal a winning blow), it probably doesn't take much support for Luffy to win. No one on the Mugiwaras has both offense and defense without setbacks (I have to exclude Jinbei and all of his hax support with Gyojin Karate if a large body of water is close since everyone except Shanks gets weakened if they are over 50% submerged in water). Zoro can provide support with his Pound-Hou attacks, but he is limited to a fraction of his true slash strength/destructive power. Although it can be defensive to negate parts of attacks, it isn't a shield. Robin could provide excellent defensive support through Giganto Clutches (something that is possible theoretically but never shown since she has never produced more than two giant limbs). For example, she could stop or at least dramatically decrease the force behind a strike by having multiple giant limbs blocking it during the wind-up (rather than "Clutch"ing their neck, she does the same to the shoulder, elbow, wrist, etc. before a punch). Right now Robin does not have the speed to keep up, but if we magically give her this ability, the combination of Zoro and Robin's support means an easy win for Luffy. The reason this is so important is because this negates the threat of Kaidou, Big Mom, and Blackbeard upon their defeat. The loss of the war will result in their crews breaking up (separate thread/theory on this elsewhere, but I guess the discussion on why this is likely how Oda handles the negation of future threats can go on here since I'm kinda merging multiple threads anyway). Once Luffy gets his awakening and Zoro/Jinbei go through their respective power-up from Wano Kuni, likely any combination of Luffy +1 should be an easy win (side tangent: I initially had Sanji here but if he couldn't KO Page One with his max attack in the Raid Suit, which is what the manga implied, Sanji is a tier below the other main fighters). This is why Shanks easily and rapidly defeated Kaidou during Marineford. The Red Hair crew likely has 10 people at Yonkou/admiral level. Any combination Shanks and one of his execs would be an easy win over Kaidou. So I'll open it up to any character in the series. What would be the lowest support character needed for an easy win? I'm thinking answers are going to be all over the place. Edit: Important Luffy caveat is that he is proficient with his awakening. Think of the scene of Luffy trying to use a Gomu Gomu no Pistol against Ace. The inefficiency is probably a huge disadvantage. So this does not apply to Kaidou vs. Luffy for this arc. It would apply to future Kaidou vs. Luffy fights if Kaidou were to try to intervene in the remaining years of the manga.

Judgement

So, basically: If Luffy + 1 would defeat Kaidou on his own, what would the '+ 1' be at the very least? Someone who could weaken Kaidou in dragon form, as dragons do have a weakness on the lower part of their body. Their scales are almost impenetrable, but their bellies are not. I think somebody who could weaken a dragon that way will be assisting Luffy, and I think that's what needed at the very least. Since this is Wano Kuni, land of the Samurai (swordsmen), and since we have a dragon slayer in the crew (since Punk Hazard), I'm gonna have to go with Zoro. Not only do I think these two will team up to beat Kaidou in dragon form, I also REALLY want to see it happening. Captain and first mate, the support of the sword to finish it up with a powered up punch by Luffy, like a Samurai serving his Daimyo. It would make so much sense to me!

seiryu

> So, basically: If Luffy + 1 would defeat Kaidou on his own, what would the '+ 1' be at the very least? Someone who could weaken Kaidou in dragon form, as dragons do have a weakness on the lower part of their body. Their scales are almost impenetrable, but their bellies are not. I think somebody who could weaken a dragon that way will be assisting Luffy, and I think that's what needed at the very least. Since this is Wano Kuni, land of the Samurai (swordsmen), and since we have a dragon slayer in the crew (since Punk Hazard), I'm gonna have to go with Zoro. Not only do I think these two will team up to beat Kaidou in dragon form, I also REALLY want to see it happening. Captain and first mate, the support of the sword to finish it up with a powered up punch by Luffy, like a Samurai serving his Daimyo. It would make so much sense to me! Ah, thanks for bringing up the fight for this arc. Luffy will probably not make multiple astronomical jumps in power to be in the same tier as the Yonkou/admirals. The key is that Luffy will be unfamiliar with his awakening. Think of the scene of Luffy trying to use a Gomu Gomu no Pistol against Ace as kids. So based on the context, the Big Mom War gives him his usual trial by fire learning to gain said proficiency. So this does not apply to Kaidou vs. Luffy for this arc. It would apply to future Kaidou vs. Luffy fights if Kaidou were to try to intervene in the remaining years of the manga. I do like the idea of Luffy and Zoro working together for a major fight since we've never seen it other than minor action.

weebywitch

I’m gonna say by the end of Wano Usopp’s observational Haki has powered up enough that he uses it regularly. Even if he can’t see the future all the time, he’s still much better than he was and can get glimpses. Luffy can see the future regularly, however and Usopp reads him well, knowing how his captain is prone to react. Usopp’s advances his weaponry quite a bit, to include some kairoseiki stuffs. Using all that information, he’s great support with sniping—utilizing his myriad ammunition (sleeping gas, traps, the aforementioned kairoseiki, etc) anticipating the enemies moves to make Luffy’s job of taking them down that much easier. Of course, I just made this up because it sounded good lol. I don’t even know how serious I am.

seiryu

> I’m gonna say by the end of Wano Usopp’s observational Haki has powered up enough that he uses it regularly. Even if he can’t see the future all the time, he’s still much better than he was and can get glimpses. Luffy can see the future regularly, however and Usopp reads him well, knowing how his captain is prone to react. Usopp’s advances his weaponry quite a bit, to include some kairoseiki stuffs. Using all that information, he’s great support with sniping—utilizing his myriad ammunition (sleeping gas, traps, the aforementioned kairoseiki, etc) anticipating the enemies moves to make Luffy’s job of taking them down that much easier. Of course, I just made this up because it sounded good lol. I don’t even know how serious I am. Ah, this is the sort of thing I was hoping to get. It doesn't take much support to have an easy win. I'm a fight-sports fan, and the cliche of "styles make fights" is completely true. As long as the support is great, a "weak" character still makes for an easy win. Usopp doesn't even need future-level kenbunshoku. He just needs enough kenbunshoku to keep up with Yonkou/admiral level speed (this would be a huge jump for Usopp, but kenbunshoku makes this easily possible). Hell, his ability to consistently snipe from "impossible" distances might be evidence that he has basics of the basics of kenbunshoku down. The kairouseki is legit with the Wano Kuni craftsmanship. His traps, which is perfect in all aspects since plants require different stimulus to grow, are a key aspect since he has the variety of support skills that fruit abilities allow. I honestly didn't consider Usopp at all, but he's actually the second best option other than Zoro. Robin's ability is the best of the entire crew, but her weakness is inadequate defense. Based on how the sprouting of eyes works (visual stimulus overload), Robin literally dies of pain if a Yonkou/admiral attacks her giant limbs. Too much of a weakness to do more than once or twice. But even with this, given the right loopholes, it could work.

weebywitch

> Ah, this is the sort of thing I was hoping to get. It doesn't take much support to have an easy win. I'm a fight-sports fan, and the cliche of "styles make fights" is completely true. As long as the support is great, a "weak" character still makes for an easy win. Usopp doesn't even need future-level kenbunshoku. He just needs enough kenbunshoku to keep up with Yonkou/admiral level speed (this would be a huge jump for Usopp, but kenbunshoku makes this easily possible). Hell, his ability to consistently snipe from "impossible" distances might be evidence that he has basics of the basics of kenbunshoku down. The kairouseki is legit with the Wano Kuni craftsmanship. His traps, which is perfect in all aspects since plants require different stimulus to grow, are a key aspect since he has the variety of support skills that fruit abilities allow. I honestly didn't consider Usopp at all, but he's actually the second best option other than Zoro. Robin's ability is the best of the entire crew, but her weakness is inadequate defense. Based on how the sprouting of eyes works (visual stimulus overload), Robin literally dies of pain if a Yonkou/admiral attacks her giant limbs. Too much of a weakness to do more than once or twice. But even with this, given the right loopholes, it could work. Right! Like his traps and sleeping gases and various things are off the chain, with kenbunshoku amped up, and whatever power up he’s going to get by the end of this arc, he should be the perfect support. I was really confident as I was typing it up. My only concern was that his fighting style is “sneaky” or could be considered that so would Luffy have a problem using it but thinking about it, Nami is devious as all hell and her strategy against Cracker wasn’t up and up so he should be fine with it. That’s why I was second guessing myself at the end of the post. But reading this response makes me feel better about my initial gut thoughts. As we know, sometimes I say the darnedest things in my randomness so the links I make could be misfires for sure.

yonko

My first question! Why would I fight myself?!

Marco Polo

So if we're relating this to Luffy specifically, then I think the fighters that would provide him the best support aren't the main fighters (Zoro/Sanji/Jinbe) - rather, it'd be the ones who have been used in a "support" capacity that would be the most useful, especially if we're talking about Luffy as a Yonko-level fighter. For example, Nami's presence in the Cracker fight ended up being the ideal support for that situation, with the Rain Tempo (is that what it's called?) being key in forcing Cracker to use his real body. However, that's a pretty situational setup - if we're talking more generally then I think the most useful support would be Usopp, as I think his skillset and intelligence, as well as his knowledge of how Luffy fights (see: Luffy vs Usopp) would both allow Luffy to move as freely as he normally would, as well as covering him in the event of cheap shots. Robin also provides a very interesting support option, though I think Armament Haki is needed when coming against high-level fighters. If we're talking about main fighters, then all of Zoro, Sanji and Jinbe provide interesting combination options. Zoro for brute force, Sanji for speed and Jinbe for endurance. Though in that case they're not really "support", they're fighting alongside him. My fantasy picks for Luffy's tag team partner, however, are Ace and Sabo - they grew up fighting as a team, and know each other's tendencies better than anyone. Also, they're both crazy strong. As for the other Yonko, I'm not too sure - Kaido/BB seem formidable enough to not require support, Shanks is still too much of an unknown (though I'd imagine Beckmann/Yasopp/Lucky Roo would bring good support?). For Big Mom, maybe Perospero as seiryu mentioned? He's likely well versed in dealing with her illness, and he's got very good defensive capability. Katakuri and his jelly beans could also be useful.

seiryu

> Right! Like his traps and sleeping gases and various things are off the chain, with kenbunshoku amped up, and whatever power up he’s going to get by the end of this arc, he should be the perfect support. I was really confident as I was typing it up. My only concern was that his fighting style is “sneaky” or could be considered that so would Luffy have a problem using it but thinking about it, Nami is devious as all hell and her strategy against Cracker wasn’t up and up so he should be fine with it. That’s why I was second guessing myself at the end of the post. But reading this response makes me feel better about my initial gut thoughts. As we know, sometimes I say the darnedest things in my randomness so the links I make could be misfires for sure. I have to assume it is the shounen series plot armor, but the 1v1 mindset will probably apply to the first war only. When the crew is fighting off small action (non-climax fights), teamwork is the norm. If Kaidou, Big Mom, or even Blackbeard is alone after their defeat in the war, I would imagine Luffy prioritizes continuing the adventure. So the mindset of getting the "hinderance" over with as soon as possible leads to the same teamwork. I'm really starting to think there has to be an element of craziness to theories. There is a major twist to all major plot points. Trying to think out of the box for that aspect is necessary since Oda's that excellent with the plot. The rationale has to be there to fit everything else together.> My first question! Why would I fight myself?! To determine which side of you is best suited to be Pirate King? Marco Polo ah, completely forgot about the Usopp vs. Luffy fight! Technically, I'm open to any and all suggestions, so any of the Yonkou. But yes, the Nami support is essentially is the theme of the thread. Even a seemingly daunting task is super easy with the right support. I would love to see the brothers fight together, but that seems unfair since they have always been among the best in their tier. This carries over for all of the Red Hair crew. Although we know essentially absolutely nothing about them, we do know that even the 3rd, 4th, 5th or so ranked member is roughly equal to an admiral (Ben and Kizaru). The overkill is why they got to Marineford so quickly. The high ranking Marines are surprised because they know how strong the Red Hair execs are.> I'm not too sure - Kaido/BB seem formidable enough to not require support Haha...I agree since their personalities also match this. It's all hypothetical and the 100 Beast Crew does get hard because of the constant zoan theme. There is minimal means of providing ranged support, and almost no means of ranged defensive support. This necessitates the two powerhouses fighting as a tag team. Ah, Big Mom's crew is actually easy since they have so many fruit abilities. Anything that has an element presentation (matter based paramecia like Opera, Perospero, Katakuri, etc.) is an easy answer. But even the guy with the cheese name (I think). The book guy. Even Brulee's ability to reflect or make a mirror image are cheat defensive options.

yonko

> To determine which side of you is best suited to be Pirate King? Not gonna go against Luffy-Senpai : ... I would rather aim for a Yonko. : Baka! Donnnn't say embarrassing stuff... :