Why is Oda Hating on Sanji?!

seiryu

I found a new passion: disapproving of Oda purposefully and excessive making Sanji weaker than he needs to be. I probably should clarify that I don't see the purpose of rivalries. In sports, it is stupid to dislike someone before even knowing them. It is fine for Zoro and Sanji to have their rivalry since it is only for comedic purposes. Their fan bases disliking each other is worse than their childish pettiness. With that out of the way, this is probably deeper than what you watched/read. I think we all should agree for that the vast majority of the series Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji were all shown to be rough equals to each other. Since they all have different strengths and weaknesses, they helped balance out and defeat the opponent's strongest fighters. It is only after 3D2Y that Sanji is significantly lagging behind and cannot keep up with enemy executives/captains. Moreover, Iva is a major powerhouse despite his demeanor (he's roughly equal to Kuma and I think most people have Kuma astronomically underrated). Even with Iva's initial unwillingness to train Sanji, Sanji defeating and gaining all of the secret recipes is how he forced respect from Iva. Iva wants to help Luffy, so this is how Sanji probably learns to use haki. The problem is the lack of improvements to his physical capabilities (not having the speed, strength, destructive power, etc.) to fulfill his monster trio "role" We all know the big examples of Sanji not being able to hold his own against Virgo and Doffy. Plus, even with the huge power-ups from the Raid Suit, Sanji doesn't appear to deal a severely damaging blow. From my understanding, it is necessary for Sanji to have some level of both physical and psychological "weakness" for WCI to serve it's full purpose. However, all Oda had to do is just have all the Vinsmoke master their Raid Suits (which it appears they already have based on Ichiji and Niji being able to take out potentially an entire country by themselves). Based on my lengthy discussion in the chapter discussion, I truly believe Oda is doing a complete disservice to Sanji. It is cruel and unusual punishment because unless there is some mind-blowing twist, there is no need for Sanji to continue to be weakened after WCI finished. Sanji is more than smart enough to rapidly gain proficiency of the Raid Suit (we see him master turning Stealth Mode on and off already). He has lots of down time in Wano Kuni to train if he wanted to. And that's the problem. Since the Raid Suit provides the immediate power-up to all of Sanji's physical capabilities, once he knows how to use it proficiently, Sanji is back in his role of the new powerhouses (trio plus Jinbei). I'll leave the manga spoilers out, but it literally doesn't even need a dedicated panel. Thankfully, this should end in the climax fights of Wano Kuni's action, but I see no need to have Sanji take a back seat these past 5+ years. The Raid Suits alone are sufficient to make Sanji "weaker" than Ichiji and Niji => fulfilling the emotional aspects for the WCI arc. I'm especially curious for the input of Sanji fans. I'd be writing angry emails to the WSJ if I was a big Sanji fan. It serves no purpose, so I'm even more surprised that it hasn't come up in a SBS either.

Marco Polo

I mean you’ve heard most of my input on this “situation” in the latest chapter thread (I’ll copy some of it over at some point) but my basic response is that I don’t think there’s an issue at all. > Sanji not being able to hold his own against Virgo Untrue. Nothing from their clash or the aftermath suggests that Sanji was overwhelmed. > even with the huge power-ups from the Raid Suit, Sanji doesn't appear to deal a severely damaging blow. Really? His clash with Page One was very one-sided, and the members of the Flying Six are implied to be strong enough to challenge the Calamities. > I truly believe Oda is doing a complete disservice to Sanji. He’s the most fleshed out Straw Hat besides Luffy at this point - WCI was a fantastic arc for his character. He’s showcased his ability on multiple occasions, but because there’s no flashy end panel or massive attention drawn towards it, perhaps those moments have gone under appreciated. His Observation Haki was good enough to outwit Katakuri’s future sight, and his speed and ability to read a situation have been shown on several occasions, even as recently as last chapter. He is what he always has been - dependable. When the time comes for him to have his big showdown, it’ll happen. There’s no rush.

jawahib

On the whole I actually kind of agree. My stance has always been that Sanji would always lose out to Zoro, by the simple conclusion that Sanji has the added responsibility of being a chef, and is nowhere near as dedicated to optimising his raw power as Zoro is (Zoro trains in his free time; Sanji cooks and flirts). Additionally, Oda has told us that there has always been a tiny gap between Zoro and Sanji: Zoro always takes out the second-strongest enemy, Sanji always takes out the third-strongest. The most explicit examples of this are when Luffy, Zoro and Sanji literally fought a Mr.0, Mr.1 and Mr.2 (where the lower number indicated a stronger foe), and where Zoro fought Kaku, and Sanji fought Jabra, who were literally a single Douriki apart from each other in strength, with of course Kaku edging out. However, this gap has grown exponentially after the time-skip, to the point where Zoro and Sanji are no longer in the same league anymore. Now, would it be fair to say, based on my position about Zoro always training and Sanji not doing so, that it follows that the difference represented here would maximise over a 2 year time-skip? Actually yeah, I think it would be fair to say that. But that still doesn't make it a necessity within the One Piece world. Oda could have made Sanji as strong/weak as he liked. But the thing that is quite frustrating is that even though he's been made so much weaker, he's still allowing the characters to go on behaving like they are similar in strength, especially in the first two arcs, where their rivalry was maintained. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too, though admittedly this has kind of dropped off in recent arcs (it might just be since they haven't seen each other very much tho, so we'll need to wait for them to interact again to be sure)j. To me, the fact that Sanji has the raid suit is an explicit testament to the fact that he's weaker. Oda is now telling us that Sanji can no longer compete physically with Luffy or Zoro - he needs an artificial enhancement (albeit one that was custom-made for him) that gives him an extremely strong exoskeleton, massively amplifies his movement capacity, and can even turn him invisible, to be able to reach up and fight the kinds of enemies that Zoro can take on. Now, you can argue something like "Well Zoro has always been using swords to give himself an unfair advantage, how is that any different?", but firstly, this fact rarely came up when discussing the rivalry between Sanji and Zoro before the Raid Suit (usually references to swords would be countered by Sanji's Black Leg skill), so it would seem a bit disingenuous to use here, and more importantly, Zoro has been a swordsman for as long as we met him, and he's grown only in that direction, whereas Sanji's power boost from the Raid Suit has not been anything physical, nor does it represent an improvement of his Black Leg ability (in the way that a new sword for Zoro might improve his swordsmanship abilities), so Sanji's "growth" from the Raid Suit isn't really anything specific to Sanji's current skill-set, bur rather gives him a new list of features that are quite unrelated - (ignoring the fact that the suit is made for Sanji) pretty much anyone could pick up the Raid Suit and gain the benefits of strong armour, flight, and invisibility, but not anyone can pick up a brand new sword and use it like Zoro can. I realise I haven't explicitly addressed the thread yet, so aside from what I've already said, I have to say I agree that Sanji wasn't easily losing out to Virgo (though the cracked bone thing does imply he probably would have lost had it continued), and I do agree with @Marco Polo that he's had the greatest character development (probably even more than Luffy) since the time-skip happened.

Marco Polo

> da is now telling us that Sanji can no longer compete physically with Luffy or Zoro - he needs an artificial enhancement (albeit one that was custom-made for him) that gives him an extremely strong exoskeleton, massively amplifies his movement capacity, and can even turn him invisible, to be able to reach up and fight the kinds of enemies that Zoro can take on. Thoughts on Enma? I know you've said it's disingenuous to argue this but given how drastically it increases the amount of Haki Zoro can imbue on his swords (black blades are pretty much the pinnacle for swordsmen) as well as the overall Haki control he gains from using it, the boost in power is surely comparable? The Raid Suit is to Sanji what Enma is to Zoro - a new weapon that brings them up a tier so they can compete with the top guys in the New World. > Sanji's power boost from the Raid Suit has not been anything physical, nor does it represent an improvement of his Black Leg ability (in the way that a new sword for Zoro might improve his swordsmanship abilities), so Sanji's "growth" from the Raid Suit isn't really anything specific to Sanji's current skill-set, bur rather gives him a new list of features that are quite unrelated - (ignoring the fact that the suit is made for Sanji) pretty much anyone could pick up the Raid Suit and gain the benefits of strong armour, flight, and invisibility, but not anyone can pick up a brand new sword and use it like Zoro can. Invisibility aside, I disagree about the features of the suit being unrelated. And even then, I can make an argument for invisibility being incredibly relevant to Sanji and how he operates (bathhouses aside). I've also sort of covered this previously when talking to seiryu, but the way I see the Raid Suit is like a piece of high-level equipment in an RPG. Sure, anyone could put it on (I'm pretty sure they literally can't but let's say they can for the sake of argument) but do they get the same level of benefits as Sanji would? Yes, they can do the invisibility and flight-related stuff, but do you see them reaching the same levels of strength with it as Sanji potentially can? For example, had Sanji given the Raid Suit to Usopp, Franky or even Law to try out against Page One, I think all of them spend most of their time crashing into buildings and randomly activating suit features without meaning to. Why? Because the Suit doesn't "suit" how they fight. The Raid Suit is only a significant powerup for Sanji because the abilities is gives are directly complimentary to his existing skillset (Black Leg, Sky Walk, and to an extent Observation Haki) and his known tendencies (magically appearing at crucial moments). To put it as simply as possible: > The flight/faster movement from the rocket shoes is essentially a technologically enhanced version of Sky Walk and Blue Walk. > The rocket shoes also raise the possibility of increased kicking power. (I can see an argument for this being an unnatural enhancement, but in response I'll refer you to the scene right after Zoro gets Enma and he unintentionally slices a chunk off the Wano coastline - the increase in power here is similar, if not slightly smaller). > The invisibility maximises Sanji's ability to work on the "Sanji sidequests" that happen in a lot of major arcs, and further allows him to mask his presence. We've already seen this with him rescuing Momonosuke from King, The exoskeleton and durability enhancement is the only power where you can really say "maybe that's not fair" - especially considering the level of injury Sanji usually takes when he fights (such is the life of a melee fighter). The only big question mark with the Raid Suit is Diable Jambe - the Germa suits are mostly fire resistant and Diable Jambe is Sanji's signature fighting style that he spent two years developing. There's two possibilities that this raises: 1. There's a way for him to activate Diable Jambe over the Raid Suit (his soul burns hotter than fire or whatever), we just haven't seen it yet. 2. He can't activate Diable Jambe whilst in the Raid Suit, which means he's only using the Raid Suit for stealth purposes, and he'll be without it for any major fights.

seiryu

> Untrue. Nothing from their clash or the aftermath suggests that Sanji was overwhelmed. Then why do we not have other people break bones? We have Sanji twice and Usopp once. Even with the manga levels of strength, it still reflects a significant injury. If it wasn't everyone would be breaking bones on a regular basis. I explained the science of how bones break, so why does it not happen to others?> Really? His clash with Page One was very one-sided, and the members of the Flying Six are implied to be strong enough to challenge the Calamities. Then why is Page One not shown to have any lasting damage? Yes, Zoan's rapidly recover. Significant damage creates a lasting wound => Yamato's attack leaves Ulti bloodied and this was shown in recent panels as well (she denied treatment to bandage or stop the bleeding so maybe this changes things if she got treated). If Sanji did something more than just knock Page One out, he would still have a bandage or some other visual sign of lingering damage. Sasaki and Black Maria only. Page One is clearly on a different tier. Titles do not equate power levels, which is why I see some overlap with Doffy's execs and Kaidou/Big Mom's execs. I'm 100% sure the majority agree on the differences within the Tobi Roppou. This comment is implying they are all the same from what I'm reading.> He’s the most fleshed out Straw Hat besides Luffy at this point - WCI was a fantastic arc for his character. He’s showcased his ability on multiple occasions, but because there’s no flashy end panel or massive attention drawn towards it, perhaps those moments have gone under appreciated. His Observation Haki was good enough to outwit Katakuri’s future sight, and his speed and ability to read a situation have been shown on several occasions, even as recently as last chapter. He is what he always has been - dependable. When the time comes for him to have his big showdown, it’ll happen. There’s no rush. So of course I'm not going to disagree with Sanji's best points or at least what makes me a fan of him. The science and even manga science are clearly implying a bigger deal of Sanji's clashes with people of the same tier or a tier above him. Does Luffy break his bones in his hand or forearm punching Big Mom or Kaidou? Sanji has a worried look immediately upon Doffy easily blocking his attack (Sanji knows he can't protect the crew members below him). If people think diverting from the main points "wins" a discussion, to each their own. I'll stick to my purpose of just putting the content's details out for people to do with it what they want. So if belittling the extent of Sanji repeatedly not being able to match captains and execs in opposing crews is what allows you to not be mad at the series, I can respect that. And I'll take that as the implication since we keep avoiding the main points of displays of true power levels (the climax action). If you want to continue the discussion, I want to focus on the clear pattern of Sanji's max output being dramatically less than the vast majority of captains and executives. There are some who he keeps up with, the majority he is lacking.> Additionally, Oda has told us that there has always been a tiny gap between Zoro and Sanji: Zoro always takes out the second-strongest enemy, Sanji always takes out the third-strongest. The most explicit examples of this are when Luffy, Zoro and Sanji literally fought a Mr.0, Mr.1 and Mr.2 (where the lower number indicated a stronger foe), and where Zoro fought Kaku, and Sanji fought Jabra, who were literally a single Douriki apart from each other in strength, with of course Kaku edging out. I will 100% defend Sanji here. This is the whole manga and real world aspect of "styles make fights". The easy example is Luffy loses to any swordsman. Because of Luffy's biggest weakness (getting his limbs cut off). Zoro isn't stronger than Luffy, he is the better stylistic match-up. You say so yourself that the difference between Kaku and Jyabura is only one average human. Off the top of my head, they are in the thousands (of douriki). This is statistically irrelevant. They are equal in combat capabilities. The Mr. 1 aspect is the same as Zoro's role, but the main point for me is that for the entire series from the start to Kuma dispersing everyone to their ideal training grounds, Sanji is statistically equal to both Zoro and Luffy. They all have their advantageous match-ups and disadvantageous match-ups. Oda purposefully goes out of his way with Jyabura to highlight this. Yes, there is still an "order" and Zoro is implied to be slightly above Sanji, but it is statistically insignificant. Sanji survives taking all of Luffy's damage (the Kuma scene in Thriller Bark). But that's Zoro's personality and his vice-captain role.> However, this gap has grown exponentially after the time-skip, to the point where Zoro and Sanji are no longer in the same league anymore. Now, would it be fair to say, based on my position about Zoro always training and Sanji not doing so, that it follows that the difference represented here would maximise over a 2 year time-skip? Actually yeah, I think it would be fair to say that. But that still doesn't make it a necessity within the One Piece world. Oda could have made Sanji as strong/weak as he liked. But the thing that is quite frustrating is that even though he's been made so much weaker, he's still allowing the characters to go on behaving like they are similar in strength, especially in the first two arcs, where their rivalry was maintained. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too, though admittedly this has kind of dropped off in recent arcs (it might just be since they haven't seen each other very much tho, so we'll need to wait for them to interact again to be sure)j. Thank you! Exactly. Iva seems to be astronomically underrated because of the wacky personality. He's able to fight with Kuma, who should be in contention for the second fastest or potentially fastest character behind Kizaru with his teleportation (another person astronomically underrated). The monster sized Yonkou are only as fast as Gear Fourth Luffy, and we don't get to see Shanks in any real action. Context implies he's faster, but we can only go off what we are shown. > To me, the fact that Sanji has the raid suit is an explicit testament to the fact that he's weaker. Oda is now telling us that Sanji can no longer compete physically with Luffy or Zoro - he needs an artificial enhancement (albeit one that was custom-made for him) that gives him an extremely strong exoskeleton, massively amplifies his movement capacity, and can even turn him invisible, to be able to reach up and fight the kinds of enemies that Zoro can take on. YES! For me, I really hope this is only temporary because Stealth Mode is completely negated by even somewhat basic kenbunshoku. Even Usopp will be able to see and at least shoot in the correct direction of Sanji. Currently Usopp would be highly sporadic, but we already see the kenbunshoku mechanics (expanded astronomically by Fujitora). It's flashy and exciting as hell...but the implications are very negative...and that's the whole point of the thread to me. I'm never going to overlook the negative aspects. I want Oda to be able to correct them. If the Raid Suit is only temporary for Sanji, that's a perfect situation per my biases. And something we seem like we agree upon if viewed from a pro-Sanji viewpoint.> Now, you can argue something like "Well Zoro has always been using swords to give himself an unfair advantage, how is that any different?", but firstly, this fact rarely came up when discussing the rivalry between Sanji and Zoro before the Raid Suit (usually references to swords would be countered by Sanji's Black Leg skill), so it would seem a bit disingenuous to use here, and more importantly, Zoro has been a swordsman for as long as we met him, and he's grown only in that direction, whereas Sanji's power boost from the Raid Suit has not been anything physical, nor does it represent an improvement of his Black Leg ability (in the way that a new sword for Zoro might improve his swordsmanship abilities), so Sanji's "growth" from the Raid Suit isn't really anything specific to Sanji's current skill-set, bur rather gives him a new list of features that are quite unrelated - (ignoring the fact that the suit is made for Sanji) pretty much anyone could pick up the Raid Suit and gain the benefits of strong armour, flight, and invisibility, but not anyone can pick up a brand new sword and use it like Zoro can. I definitely agree with the overall point of the Raid Suit essentially being a "tool"/"weapon" that can be viewed as just an equivalent to Zoro's swords (that's what I got at least). I do want to point out how the "styles make fights" aspect plays a huge part in bias skewing power levels. I don't think I ever remember Zoro using the back of his blades when clashing with Sanji. Sanji is always fast and flexible enough to counter the flat side of the blade (I don't remember any scene of them clashing after 3D2Y so busoushoku would explain Sanji not getting cut for these instances). And thus, more of the evidence of the monster trio all being statistically significant equals (with only super small differences), that is dependent on the opponents fighting style. > (though the cracked bone thing does imply he probably would have lost had it continued) I can go over the science of how a bone doesn't break when throwing a strike, but we agree on the overall power level aspect (or at least the resulting outcome of the fight).> On the whole I actually kind of agree. My stance has always been that Sanji would always lose out to Zoro, by the simple conclusion that Sanji has the added responsibility of being a chef, and is nowhere near as dedicated to optimising his raw power as Zoro is (Zoro trains in his free time; Sanji cooks and flirts). Additionally, Oda has told us that there has always been a tiny gap between Zoro and Sanji: Zoro always takes out the second-strongest enemy, Sanji always takes out the third-strongest. The most explicit examples of this are when Luffy, Zoro and Sanji literally fought a Mr.0, Mr.1 and Mr.2 (where the lower number indicated a stronger foe), and where Zoro fought Kaku, and Sanji fought Jabra, who were literally a single Douriki apart from each other in strength, with of course Kaku edging out. However, this gap has grown exponentially after the time-skip, to the point where Zoro and Sanji are no longer in the same league anymore. Now, would it be fair to say, based on my position about Zoro always training and Sanji not doing so, that it follows that the difference represented here would maximise over a 2 year time-skip? Actually yeah, I think it would be fair to say that. But that still doesn't make it a necessity within the One Piece world. Oda could have made Sanji as strong/weak as he liked. But the thing that is quite frustrating is that even though he's been made so much weaker, he's still allowing the characters to go on behaving like they are similar in strength, especially in the first two arcs, where their rivalry was maintained. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too, though admittedly this has kind of dropped off in recent arcs (it might just be since they haven't seen each other very much tho, so we'll need to wait for them to interact again to be sure)j. To me, the fact that Sanji has the raid suit is an explicit testament to the fact that he's weaker. Oda is now telling us that Sanji can no longer compete physically with Luffy or Zoro - he needs an artificial enhancement (albeit one that was custom-made for him) that gives him an extremely strong exoskeleton, massively amplifies his movement capacity, and can even turn him invisible, to be able to reach up and fight the kinds of enemies that Zoro can take on. Now, you can argue something like "Well Zoro has always been using swords to give himself an unfair advantage, how is that any different?", but firstly, this fact rarely came up when discussing the rivalry between Sanji and Zoro before the Raid Suit (usually references to swords would be countered by Sanji's Black Leg skill), so it would seem a bit disingenuous to use here, and more importantly, Zoro has been a swordsman for as long as we met him, and he's grown only in that direction, whereas Sanji's power boost from the Raid Suit has not been anything physical, nor does it represent an improvement of his Black Leg ability (in the way that a new sword for Zoro might improve his swordsmanship abilities), so Sanji's "growth" from the Raid Suit isn't really anything specific to Sanji's current skill-set, bur rather gives him a new list of features that are quite unrelated - (ignoring the fact that the suit is made for Sanji) pretty much anyone could pick up the Raid Suit and gain the benefits of strong armour, flight, and invisibility, but not anyone can pick up a brand new sword and use it like Zoro can. I realise I haven't explicitly addressed the thread yet, so aside from what I've already said, I have to say I agree that Sanji wasn't easily losing out to Virgo (though the cracked bone thing does imply he probably would have lost had it continued), and I do agree with @Marco Polo that he's had the greatest character development (probably even more than Luffy) since the time-skip happened. I like Sanji for the points brought up, so I'm in full agreement here. You actually do cover the main aspects/points of this thread...and that's the point. I personally think people are overlooking and or downplaying a very negative trend for Sanji. I said in the previous discussion that if I was a Sanji fan (and paying close attention to all of these), I'd be writing angry emails to WSJ or submitting a SBS question on why Oda is doing all of this over SOOOOOO many years of manga. Yes, it is a necessary aspect of WCI, but Sanji only has to be weaker than Ichiji and Niji when they are in their Raid Suits. For me this, is B.S. since I cannot foresee a legitimate twist from Sanji having to be weaker than his role needs him to be. If that does happen, god damn on Oda. This tops any main plot related twist to me since those are all predictable by context. Since the mindset of Sanji fans is what I'm most curious about, did you not mentally keep track of the pattern?> I've also sort of covered this previously when talking to @seiryu, but the way I see the Raid Suit is like a piece of high-level equipment in an RPG. Sure, anyone could put it on (I'm pretty sure they literally can't but let's say they can for the sake of argument) but do they get the same level of benefits as Sanji would? Luffy already tried, so it is tied to Vinsmoke genetics. We all agree on the mechanics of the "weapon". From what I'm reading Jawa and myself don't like the external power-up for Sanji. I will speak for myself that I want Sanji to only use this temporarily. I want him to become on the same level again with his own body/abilities.> 1. There's a way for him to activate Diable Jambe over the Raid Suit (his soul burns hotter than fire or whatever), we just haven't seen it yet. 2. He can't activate Diable Jambe whilst in the Raid Suit, which means he's only using the Raid Suit for stealth purposes, and he'll be without it for any major fights. So I'm going to divert to the main discrepancy point per our differing perspectives since this directly ties to it. How much destructive power does Diable Jambe provide? Based on what we are seeing, it is now only a heat related addition. Without haki, Doffy didn't even flinch. This implies all powerhouses are unaffected by the extent of heat. Maybe this changes and Sanji's soul has another tier of fire to reach, but as of right now, I only see as much destructive power as Virgo's busoushoku infused strikes. Which are all below Pica, Doffy, and even Hodi (excluding manga spoilers). Crap...just realized something depressing. I want your thoughts Jawahib. How do you see Sanji vs. Hody going down? I'm not going to answer now since I can't be fully objective. Yes, even Luffy needs some help to offset the poor mobility while in the water, so maybe we'll only focus on a fight within the bubble of Gyojin Island. Based on peak capabilities (the combat capabilities during the climax of climax fights), I do not have an optimistic view for Sanji right now. I should be objective viewing the fight without typing out responses prior to thinking about it.

jawahib

> Thoughts on Enma? I know you've said it's disingenuous to argue this but given how drastically it increases the amount of Haki Zoro can imbue on his swords (black blades are pretty much the pinnacle for swordsmen) as well as the overall Haki control he gains from using it, the boost in power is surely comparable? The Raid Suit is to Sanji what Enma is to Zoro - a new weapon that brings them up a tier so they can compete with the top guys in the New World. I sort of avoided name-dropping Enma for spoiler concerns, but OH WELL lol. So, yeah absolutely Enma promises to be a great power up, but my point about not just anyone being able to use it still stands. Additionally, for this point to be relevant to what I was trying to say, you'd need to be using this argument to support the idea that pre-Raid Suit Sanji was equal or at least near-equal in strength to pre-Enma Zoro. Overall I'd prefer to reserve judgement on Enma until we see it in action, but the principle still stands I think that not anyone would be able to use Enma - you'd need to be incredibly strong to be able to even pick it up. You'd need to already be able to use Haki to get those benefits. You'd need to be a great swordsman to gain much use out of it. The Raid Suit... wait that's your next point - > Invisibility aside, I disagree about the features of the suit being unrelated. And even then, I can make an argument for invisibility being incredibly relevant to Sanji and how he operates (bathhouses aside). I've also sort of covered this previously when talking to @seiryu, but the way I see the Raid Suit is like a piece of high-level equipment in an RPG. Sure, anyone could put it on (I'm pretty sure they literally can't but let's say they can for the sake of argument) but do they get the same level of benefits as Sanji would? Yes, they can do the invisibility and flight-related stuff, but do you see them reaching the same levels of strength with it as Sanji potentially can? For example, had Sanji given the Raid Suit to Usopp, Franky or even Law to try out against Page One, I think all of them spend most of their time crashing into buildings and randomly activating suit features without meaning to. Why? Because the Suit doesn't "suit" how they fight. The Raid Suit is only a significant powerup for Sanji because the abilities is gives are directly complimentary to his existing skillset (Black Leg, Sky Walk, and to an extent Observation Haki) and his known tendencies (magically appearing at crucial moments). To put it as simply as possible: > The flight/faster movement from the rocket shoes is essentially a technologically enhanced version of Sky Walk and Blue Walk. > The rocket shoes also raise the possibility of increased kicking power. (I can see an argument for this being an unnatural enhancement, but in response I'll refer you to the scene right after Zoro gets Enma and he unintentionally slices a chunk off the Wano coastline - the increase in power here is similar, if not slightly smaller). > The invisibility maximises Sanji's ability to work on the "Sanji sidequests" that happen in a lot of major arcs, and further allows him to mask his presence. We've already seen this with him rescuing Momonosuke from King, The exoskeleton and durability enhancement is the only power where you can really say "maybe that's not fair" - especially considering the level of injury Sanji usually takes when he fights (such is the life of a melee fighter). The only big question mark with the Raid Suit is Diable Jambe - the Germa suits are mostly fire resistant and Diable Jambe is Sanji's signature fighting style that he spent two years developing. There's two possibilities that this raises: 1. There's a way for him to activate Diable Jambe over the Raid Suit (his soul burns hotter than fire or whatever), we just haven't seen it yet. 2. He can't activate Diable Jambe whilst in the Raid Suit, which means he's only using the Raid Suit for stealth purposes, and he'll be without it for any major fights. OK, so my argument is not that Sanji's current combat-potency remains unenhanced by the Raid Suit. My point is that his abilities themselves remain unenhanced, so we can't really think of it as a "power-up" of Sanji's abilities. So, let me lay out why I perceive this as being different to Zoro acquiring Enma. Zoro's primary strength lies in the fact that he is a swordsman. This already then makes him dependent on swords in order to maximise his combat proficiency. You could argue that a sword is an artificial enhancement of the same calibre as the Raid Suit (if you do I'd say we're completely stuck btw, and would just need to agree to disagree), but this has been the case since day 1. It's part of Zoro's identity, almost like his combat DNA if you will. Zoro has never and will never fight better without swords than with swords. When we envision Zoro fighting, it's always with swords as the default. When Zoro trains, he trains his body physically, and he also trains his own ability to use his swords. Growth for Zoro could mean either learning a new sword ability, or reaching higher levels of physical strength. In fact, in Zoro's case, you could easily argue that Zoro only increases physically in order to be more potent with his swords (at the least to deliver more powerful slashes). So Zoro's "natural" growth encompasses anything involving his physical capabilities (Haki, strength, speed etc), as well as his abilities with a sword. Note that this doesn't explicitly indicate that a new sword would count as "natural", but I mean, what else does a new great sword offer except the promise of new abilities or enhancing current ones? Now, this means then that the acquisition of Enma, insofar as it increases his abilities with a sword, would indeed count as "natural" growth. If Enma provided Zoro any new abilities by virtue of the sword alone and not enhancing what he already has (e.g., if it contained a pistol-gun, or if it had a button that would automatically imbue it with Oden's Haki), I would count those as being "artificial", because they do not increase Zoro's natural abilities, but rather provide a new set of abilities independent of Zoro that anyone would be able to access if they just pick up the sword. NOTE though, that even if Zoro is better-suited to use any such artificial ability (let's say pistol-gun), because Zoro's pre-existing skill as a swordsman would make him better able to wield the sword and thus be better suited to use it against enemies, I would still make the same argument that I make about the Raid Suit - it's an artificial power that anyone who picks the sword up will have access to. SO, on to Sanji. Sanji's primary strength lies in his Martial Arts skills. Thus, as with Zoro, "natural" growth for Sanji would encompass any physical growth (Haki, strength, speed etc), and any new Martial Arts techniques he develops/learns, especially as related to the Black Leg Style. If Sanji acquired new socks or shoes that allowed him to perform new techniques (I'd probably put Diable Jambe under such a category), I would count this as "natural" growth, because he still would be ultimately defined by his own strength and technique, and for anyone else to use the powers that such gear might grant, they'd need to also share his proficiency with Black Leg. This is probably a weird place to put this, but I just want to quickly address your point about Usopp/Franky/Law wearing the Raid Suit. You're right, they'd probably spend most of their time crashing into buildings. At first. All that Sanji's power gives him with regard to the Suit's powers is a less steep learning curve. With a bit of practice, Law, Usopp and even Nami would be able to use the rocket shoes, make the most of the exoskeleton, and be able to use the invisibility. Depending on exactly how durable the suit is, there might actually be a case that Nami wearing it would be able to beat Sanji pre-time-skip - hell maybe even post time-skip if it was strong enough. We can't say anything near the same about Enma, since one already needs to be already extremely proficient to be able to use it at all. So, regarding the Raid Suit being artificial; hopefully it's clear that the Raid Suit fundamentally is NOT a natural power boost. It doesn't make Sanji physically stronger (i.e. aside from the boost given when he's actually wearing it. It's not like wearing the suit improves his muscles/skill like ordinary training would), and it doesn't provide him with new Black Leg Techniques. The only thing I would concede here is when he uses rockets to improve his kicks - if all he gained were rocket shoes, as I implied earlier, I'd find it far easier to say that it was a natural power boost similar to acquiring a new sword for Zoro. He does not use Black Leg or physical strength to go invisible; he uses the suit. He does not use Black Leg or physical strength to increase his durability; that's just the suit. The fact that it is a great supplement to his current skillset and the way he currently does things (i.e. "Sanji sidequests" and the complementary nature of the Suit's abilities) aren't related to the fact that this is still primarily an artificial power boost for Sanji. Was about to post this until I saw @seiryu 's response, but can't leave a direct question unanswered: > Crap...just realized something depressing. I want your thoughts Jawahib. How do you see Sanji vs. Hody going down? I'm not going to answer now since I can't be fully objective. Yes, even Luffy needs some help to offset the poor mobility while in the water, so maybe we'll only focus on a fight within the bubble of Gyojin Island. Based on peak capabilities (the combat capabilities during the climax of climax fights), I do not have an optimistic view for Sanji right now. I should be objective viewing the fight without typing out responses prior to thinking about it. Sanji wins fairly easily, but not as easily as Zoro did, which is kind of my point about the difference in strength growing after the time-skip. But I mean, to be clear, Hody is nothing impressive lol. A better match-up to make the point might be Sanji vs Pika, or even Sanji vs Killer (Karamazou, as he was when he attacked Zoro by the bridge), and in either case I don't see Sanji shining as brightly as Zoro did.

weebywitch

jawahib

> so Sanji's "growth" from the Raid Suit isn't really anything specific to Sanji's current skill-set, bur rather gives him a new list of features that are quite unrelated - (ignoring the fact that the suit is made for Sanji) pretty much anyone could pick up the Raid Suit and gain the benefits of strong armour, flight, and invisibility, I’d have to counter the train of thought that this suit and the growth aren’t Sanji specific. They show his character development in a way that can only apply to him on so many levels--there’s the skills themselves which you’ve noted were tailored to him. They match his lifelong desires—both implicit and explicit. The invisibility was part of what he longed for from a devil fruit, what he both desired and didn’t want from his birth family, the exoskeleton is his birthright but was denied to him and he craved it yet became the amazing person he was due to the sacrificial miracle that kept it from him, the ability of flight was one his family had but he had to “suffer two years in hell” to acquire on his own in the form of Sky Walk—accepting all of these enhancements in the form of Germa technology means accepting that he’s made peace with his past and can take that peace offering. He can let it go and move forward towards his future knowing that his trauma is a part of him but not who he is—he is stronger for having lived through it on his own terms. He can choose when to be invisible, his mother’s sacrifice was not in vain and he can fly free to find the All Blue and fulfill his dream. So how is this not him growing stronger on his terms and in a way that only he can use the suit? So I think that the discussion regarding Sanji's character development and his relationship with Germa is something that should be made utterly distinct from a Raid Suit that gives him cool powers. I think there is a real discussion to be had there regarding Sanji's character and how, at an emotional level, the Raid Suit means a whole bunch to Sanji that it doesn't mean to anyone else, but in my case at least (and I believe seiryu is the same), I am only making my assertions with regards to Sanji's combat prowess rather than his character as a whole. So with that said, at a purely power-up level, the powers of the Raid Suit would theoretically be accessible to anyone who put it on - there's nothing that Sanji needs to already have to be able to use the suit (again, this is ignoring the fact that it was custom-made for Sanji). The point I was making was that even Usopp or Nami would gain the same benefits Sanji gains if they could put on the suit, and thus the Raid Suit is a very artificial power-up; especially in comparison to Zoro's acquisition of Enma, a sword which requires great swordsmanship and Haki skill to be able to use in any meaningful way that makes it distinct from any other heavy metal stick with a sharp edge, as it would be to Usopp or Nami.

Marco Polo

> Then why do we not have other people break bones? We have Sanji twice and Usopp once. Even with the manga levels of strength, it still reflects a significant injury. If it wasn't everyone would be breaking bones on a regular basis. I've already argued that Sanji's bone injury vs. Vergo wasn't as debilitating as you make it out to be based off the fact he got away safely and seemed to be moving just fine afterwards. In the long run, it's about as debilitating as the hit Zoro took from Scratchmen Apoo (not very). However, here's some explanations as to why we haven't seen more bone fractures in One Piece: Luffy - made of rubber Zoro - tends to suffer cutting injuries rather than broken bones Usopp - N/A - we've seen him break a bone Nami, Robin - don't get in many bone-breaking situations Franky - cyborg Brook - he can open his skull, therefore making it permanently broken. The only Straw Hat I don't have an explanation for is Chopper (also Jinbe but he's only just joined so there's not a large enough sample size yet) > Then why is Page One not shown to have any lasting damage? Yes, Zoan's rapidly recover. Significant damage creates a lasting wound => Yamato's attack leaves Ulti bloodied and this was shown in recent panels as well (she denied treatment to bandage or stop the bleeding so maybe this changes things if she got treated). The next time we see him is on the day of the Fire Festival, two weeks after the Sanji clash > So of course I'm not going to disagree with Sanji's best points or at least what makes me a fan of him. The science and even manga science are clearly implying a bigger deal of Sanji's clashes with people of the same tier or a tier above him. Does Luffy break his bones in his hand or forearm punching Big Mom or Kaidou? Sanji has a worried look immediately upon Doffy easily blocking his attack (Sanji knows he can't protect the crew members below him). If people think diverting from the main points "wins" a discussion, to each their own. I'll stick to my purpose of just putting the content's details out for people to do with it what they want. Your statement said something along the lines of "Oda is doing a disservice to Sanji". The reason I bring up the strength of his writing in WCI is me saying "Oda is not doing a disservice to Sanji". If he really didn't care about Sanji's character, WCI doesn't happen. > So if belittling the extent of Sanji repeatedly not being able to match captains and execs in opposing crews is what allows you to not be mad at the series, I can respect that. I think you misunderstand why I like Sanji's character. I'm here arguing his combat strengths because I think it's daft to write him off as a fighter, but he could never fight again and he'd still be my favourite. > And I'll take that as the implication since we keep avoiding the main points of displays of true power levels (the climax action). Over the past few days I think I've given you pretty much every example of Sanji's combat ability since the timeskip, so I think this statement is, at best, selective memory. But here's literally every single combat/combat related action he's had since the turn of the timeskip. I'll put the actions that I'd classed as "feats" (i.e. displays of combat capability) in bold. > Him and Zoro one-shot a Pacifista > Protects the ship from the Kraken alongside Luffy and Zoro. Moves as fast as a Fishman underwater using Blue Walk (a feat we haven't seen from any other human character) > He and Jinbe fight Wadatsumi. Result: Win. During the fight, he sets Wadastumi's entire body on fire with a single kick (Hell Memories).This should also answer this question: > How much destructive power does Diable Jambe provide? Based on what we are seeing, it is now only a heat related addition. > Fights Vergo. Result: Draw - whilst Sanji sustains an injury in this fight, he's the one that lands the cleaner hits. > (Dressrosa fodder) > Runs across the isle of Dressrosa in a matter of minutes to fight Doflamingo. Result: Loss - Sanji gets trapped by Doflamingo's Devil Fruit, mainly due to being unaware of his ability (there's also a difference in strength). > Leads the counterattack on Big Mom's ship. Causes damage by kicking a cannonball into it. > Supports Brook in his (Brook's) fight with Sheepshead by landing a finishing move. > Defeats Yonji while Yonji is wearing his Raid Suit > Fights Judge. Result: Loss - Sanji throws the fight when he sees Judge use a soldier as a meat shield. > Fights Ichiji, Niji and Yonji. Result: Loss - Sanji throws the fight when his brothers threaten Zeff > (Luffy incident) > (Bobbin incident) > Outmanouvers Katakuri while Katakuri is using Future Sight > (brief clashes with various BM executives during the wedding, and also a very brief clash with Big Mom herself when he and Luffy leave Capone's castle) > Rescues Pound and Chiffon from Oven - he lands his attack without being detected by Oven > Lifts the crate carrying the new wedding cake with one leg (considering the size of the wedding cake I think this is worth mentioning) > Fights Page One in the Raid Suit. Result: Win - Whilst the fight doesn't have a definitive conclusion as the primary goal was to escape, Sanji is dominant throughout the encounter and lands a damaging blow to give him enough time to escape. > Rescues Momonosuke from execution using the Raid Suit. Clashes with King. Result: Fight ongoing. If you want me to use these to tell you which "tier" Sanji is in, I think he's currently at a level where he can defeat a Yonkou Executive (Flying Six, one of the more notorious Charlotte kids). The Page One encounter, Yonji encounter and Oven rescue are enough to justifiably argue that he's on that level in a fully written 1v1 fight purely based on feats. With the Raid suit on, he's at the higher end of the "Yonkou Executive" tier, without it he's in the lower end. > This is probably a weird place to put this, but I just want to quickly address your point about Usopp/Franky/Law wearing the Raid Suit. You're right, they'd probably spend most of their time crashing into buildings. At first. All that Sanji's power gives him with regard to the Suit's powers is a less steep learning curve. With a bit of practice, Law, Usopp and even Nami would be able to use the rocket shoes, make the most of the exoskeleton, and be able to use the invisibility. Depending on exactly how durable the suit is, there might actually be a case that Nami wearing it would be able to beat Sanji pre-time-skip - hell maybe even post time-skip if it was strong enough. We can't say anything near the same about Enma, since one already needs to be already extremely proficient to be able to use it at all. Okay at this point it's worth remembering that all the characters we've seen wearing Raid Suits have been training in hand-to-hand combat their entire lives. There's a difference between getting the suit to do all the tricks and being able to use those tricks to make significant improvements to your existing skillset. There's no arguing around the invisibility being an artificial powerup (it's a Devil Fruit you can wear), or the increased durability and mobility being artificial powerups (in the same way that Franky's cyborg enhancements are artificial powerups). However, the Raid Suits are designed in a way that perfectly suits a particular fighting style - the artificial powerups complement the natural abilities of the user. Ultimately, Law, Usopp and Nami would either use the abilities of the suit or fight the way they've been fighting all series. Sanji is using the abilities of the suit to enhance the way he's been fighting all series. I'm aware this isn't the argument you're trying to make, but it's important you know that this is how I percieve the Raid Suit - an artificial powerup, but one that makes perfect sense for his character and crucially, one that doesn't prohibit him from getting stronger in more "natural" ways. If he learns to kick harder without the suit on, he kicks harder with the suit on. > So, regarding the Raid Suit being artificial; hopefully it's clear that the Raid Suit fundamentally is NOT a natural power boost. It doesn't make Sanji physically stronger (i.e. aside from the boost given when he's actually wearing it. It's not like wearing the suit improves his muscles/skill like ordinary training would), and it doesn't provide him with new Black Leg Techniques. You can argue the same for Diable Jambe, actually. He doesn't get physically stronger, it's basically just his usual set of techniques + fire. > Additionally, for this point to be relevant to what I was trying to say, you'd need to be using this argument to support the idea that pre-Raid Suit Sanji was equal or at least near-equal in strength to pre-Enma Zoro. Not an argument I thought had to be made, actually. Pre-Enma Zoro is stronger than pre-Raid Suit Sanji purely based on feats, but they're still roughly in the same ball park. Zoro's strength is very much demonstrated through obvious cutting-related feats that are hard to miss, whereas Sanji gets very brief moments of shine that show his capabilities (I've listed them all above). Sanji's also consistently found himself in more dangerous situations than the situations Zoro finds himself in - which doesn't help his case. The only fight I think Zoro wins that Sanji struggles with is the Pica fight, and that's purely down to type matchup. Sanji's area of effect for damage is (and always has been) smaller than Zoro's - which makes luring Pica out of the stone structure a lot more difficult. I think he beats Hody comfortably (he's got the underwater mobility for it), and I think his speed gets him through the Kamazou fight, even without the Raid Suit. However, the Pica fight is enough to put Zoro ahead of Sanji.

weebywitch

> So I think that the discussion regarding Sanji's character development and his relationship with Germa is something that should be made utterly distinct from a Raid Suit that gives him cool powers. I think there is a real discussion to be had there regarding Sanji's character and how, at an emotional level, the Raid Suit means a whole bunch to Sanji that it doesn't mean to anyone else, but in my case at least (and I believe seiryu is the same), I am only making my assertions with regards to Sanji's combat prowess rather than his character as a whole. Can one genuinely argue that they’re distinct in this universe—especially with a character whose passion/soul burns so hot it allows him to perform/generate the flames of the Diable Jambé series of attacks?

jawahib

> Can one genuinely argue that they’re distinct in this universe—especially with a character whose passion/soul burns so hot it allows him to perform/generate the flames of the Diable Jambé series of attacks? Yes, absolutely. As long as we can assume that Sanji is always fighting at his peak, and we have a fairly mutual understanding of what that is, when we discuss how characters fare in combat we can always focus on and analyse those aspects only that affect their ability to fight, while ignoring the other dimensions of their character. This isn't something new or even controversial; people have been doing fight matchups for hundreds if not thousands of years. Hell, ScrewAttack is a channel that is predicated on this idea - we can abstract the combative element of a character and divorce that from the other elements of their character, in order to determine how two separate characters will fare in a combat scenario. It's also the premise of the One Piece User Tournaments we have every once in a while. We don't need to know how Sanji feels about the Germa in order to know how effectively he might use the Raid Suit. In point of fact, we actually still don't really know where he's at in terms of achieving inner peace with them, since he was reluctant to use the Raid Suit in the first place because of his grudge with them. We have no reason to believe that this hesitation to first activate the suit has in any way held back his use of it, and thus we can ignore his current mental status regarding Germa when analysing how the Raid Suit will affect his ability in combat. To clarify: I don't consider Sanji's relationship with Ivankov/Newkama peeps when analysing his use of Sky Walk. I don't consider Nami's relationship with the people of Weatheria when analysing her use of the new Clima Tact. I don't consider Zoro's relationship with Mihawk when analysing his use of Haki. I don't consider Luffy's relationship with Rayleigh when I analyse his Conqueror's Haki. And I don't consider Sanji's relationship with Germa when I analyse his use of the Raid Suit. I know I'm sounding a bit dismissive here, but I feel like it'd be a pretty big deviation from the current subject matter (since we'd be discussing far more abstract things than Sanji and Oda), and I'd probably need a few thousand words to lay out this point that honestly just seems intuitive to me. > Pre-Enma Zoro is stronger than pre-Raid Suit Sanji purely based on feats, but they're still roughly in the same ball park. Zoro's strength is very much demonstrated through obvious cutting-related feats that are hard to miss, whereas Sanji gets very brief moments of shine that show his capabilities (I've listed them all above). Sanji's also consistently found himself in more dangerous situations than the situations Zoro finds himself in - which doesn't help his case. The only fight I think Zoro wins that Sanji struggles with is the Pica fight, and that's purely down to type matchup. Sanji's area of effect for damage is (and always has been) smaller than Zoro's - which makes luring Pica out of the stone structure a lot more difficult. I think he beats Hody comfortably (he's got the underwater mobility for it), and I think his speed gets him through the Kamazou fight, even without the Raid Suit. However, the Pica fight is enough to put Zoro ahead of Sanji. Before I respond to this, just gonna preface it by saying there's not much I disagree with in your post, and your admittance that there are such and such artificial components of the Raid Suit satisfies me in that I was just trying to make that point that Sanji needed to be handed artificial power-ups in order to begin to close the gap between himself and Zoro/Luffy. To this quote directly, I am very tempted to start arguing the minutiae here about why Sanji is at least a single league below Zoro, but the language is already very murky (what do I even mean by "league"?) and I'm sure we'd find some weird middle ground to agree on anyway without either of us changing our positions very much. BUT, I will say that I am at least a bit relieved that you concede that the Pica fight is enough to put Zoro even a tiny bit ahead of Sanji lol. > You can argue the same for Diable Jambe, actually. He doesn't get physically stronger, it's basically just his usual set of techniques + fire. This is a bit of a weird circumstance (and something similar could be said of Asura), but I think Diable Jambe could be made to fit either in the camp of improving his Black Leg (i.e. it improves his arsenal of Black Leg abilities to include burny-hot attacks), as well as a physical boost (though it's not technically a speed/strength increase, it is something he can theoretically activate without any external resources at all, and so it is like a "natural" part of him). While it's true that if anyone was given a Diable Jambe leg and the ability to have it not burn them, they'd all have access to hot kicks, but I think the fact that it is exclusively a leg-upgrade (remember I argued before that I wouldn't mind including "kick-only rocket-shoes" under "natural" growth), that was unlocked through Sanji's own natural perseverance and skill is enough to pass it under "natural". In any case, it's certainly not as egregious as a Raid Suit regarding extra powers it gives.

angellucy

Uum, I'm not really that up to date in this matter to properly state, what I think (just at the start of Wano arc) and don't read manga at that. So it might be a bit wague in following sentences. To point out the naming of this thread. Why would Oda hate any of his characters? And why would his hate be translated into "making character automatically weaker"? It's natural flow of life, ppl change, so does his characters, Sanji had many struggles as had all from the crew, so making him strong as Zoro, as many probably expected after the time skip, wouldn't be really that...enjoyable? Rather too predictable. He's more "human" than Zoro, Zoro is a beast who's main concern is getting stronger (sticking to his routine of drinking, training, sleeping over and over again), Sanji cooks, swoons over ladies, shops, tries to be gentleman (in a way XD) etc. and if he had ever actually trained, it was only at Kamabakka Kingdom, it's not really his aim, is it? To be stronger. I was actually always a bit amused, when OP fans always had to compare strenght of each of the Straw Hats. I think it varies according to the speciality of their opponent in general, or on their health and mental situation. So the same a x b fight may actually end up to have a completely different result in each of the particular moment, one has stronger believe, one trained more frequently, one actually understood his ability, one found a new move during the fight.... well, outcomes would be very numerous :) And I think Sanji might have some unnexpected moment of power up in the future, only Oda will show us that tho ^_^ If you wonder if I'm actually fan of Sanji after reading this post...no, not only, I love both of them the same <3 Kinda miss their fights tho

seiryu

> I've already argued that Sanji's bone injury vs. Vergo wasn't as debilitating as you make it out to be based off the fact he got away safely and seemed to be moving just fine afterwards. In the long run, it's about as debilitating as the hit Zoro took from Scratchmen Apoo (not very). And I've already agreed that it is the equivalent of a sprained ankle in real life. Minor ones can still be played through for any level of sport. It still is a significant physical limitation to mobility. This is the main factor to Sanji having a clear loss if the fight continues to most people. The fact that it occurred is the proof. I will actually agree on Apoo...so many spoilers to edit...Zoro is shown to have his endurance dramatically impacted due to the depth of the wound. Sure he appears to be 100% initially, but that 5% drop snowballs over time. It is statistically significant enough that it gives a huge advantage if an equal opponent is still 100%.> The only Straw Hat I don't have an explanation for is Chopper (also Jinbe but he's only just joined so there's not a large enough sample size yet) Then what about opponents? Oda could easily show dominance over opponents through their bones breaking. Ah for Brook, we do see evidence of breaking bones being significant. Even despite taking volume and high damage in WCI, Brook only has chips to his bone. His magic air muscles still providing the dynamic stability to not have the bone break. The breadcrumbs keep pointing in one direction because it is a distinct pattern.> The next time we see him is on the day of the Fire Festival, two weeks after the Sanji clash Ah, OK. I'll leave this point as something that can go either way since Oda doesn't clarify which direction it goes. I am still curious about how you think Sanji fights Pica in Dressrosa. Jawa doesn't specify where, but most places have some percentage of stone in the ground for Pica to absorb and create a super form with. My evidence is the clear difference in peak combat capabilities shown. I'm willing to dance around on the tangents since it helps me clarify other points too, but in terms of the main question, Sanji being able to have enough destructive power to break apart a stone giant (not a flabby giant who is much smaller in size when you referenced Wadatsumi (physical strength determines defense, which is why Kaidou and Big Mom have impenetrable skin to most people so the physical strength difference still has a huge defensive rating gap even if we expand Wadatsumi to be the exact same size as Pica's ultimate form).> Your statement said something along the lines of "Oda is doing a disservice to Sanji". The reason I bring up the strength of his writing in WCI is me saying "Oda is not doing a disservice to Sanji". If he really didn't care about Sanji's character, WCI doesn't happen. Diverting to the character development is completely different. If you want to overlook the trend, just say so and I'm going to accept that. I'm biased to think most Sanji fans are doing this based on the poll results yesterday. I still love Luffy the same despite him struggling against Katakuri. But I would go crazy if it kept on happening for years of manga content. It is a disservice to Sanji ONLY in terms of fulfilling his role as an equal in the monster trio. Ah, hopefully this is a huge part of the discrepancy. I hope I've already made it clear I want to see Sanji get to this point and be equals with Luffy, Zoro, and Jinbei without the Raid Suit.> I think you misunderstand why I like Sanji's character. I'm here arguing his combat strengths because I think it's daft to write him off as a fighter, but he could never fight again and he'd still be my favourite. Then why is there constant avoidance of when I bring up the main question? If it's to maintain some sort of reputation for the people that aren't reading any of this anyway, I wouldn't care anything about that so I can just drop it. But unless I'm given a reason for avoiding the likely key question, I'm naturally going to assume it is the question that bridges the perspective difference.> > Him and Zoro one-shot a Pacifista > Protects the ship from the Kraken alongside Luffy and Zoro. Moves as fast as a Fishman underwater using Blue Walk (a feat we haven't seen from any other human character) > He and Jinbe fight Wadatsumi. Result: Win. During the fight, he sets Wadastumi's entire body on fire with a single kick (Hell Memories).This should also answer this question: ...and the opponents for all of these are push-overs. If it was Jinbei underwater, I obviously change my mind. Sanji should be able to defeat everyone from Arlong Park, hell he can probably take all of them on at the exact same time WHILE underwater. That's how much he's grown (assuming Arlong's crew is all the exact same power level we saw). So this is even more on my point: Sanji isn't given legit climax fights because of this excessive B.S. trend tied to WCI. This is completely separate from WCI B.S. to make that completely clear. I covered Wadatsumi above, so of course Sanji should dominate against a weaker opponent. > If you want me to use these to tell you which "tier" Sanji is in, I think he's currently at a level where he can defeat a Yonkou Executive (Flying Six, one of the more notorious Charlotte kids). The Page One encounter, Yonji encounter and Oven rescue are enough to justifiably argue that he's on that level in a fully written 1v1 fight purely based on feats. With the Raid suit on, he's at the higher end of the "Yonkou Executive" tier, without it he's in the lower end. Perfect. This is exactly what I needed to read. So now I have to follow up on the Tobi Roppou. Do you see Page One as the same level as Sasaki and Black Maria? If not, this is just over-glorifying defeating a "Tobi Roppou" when there is a clear difference from the top and the bottom. Similarly, Katakuri and Oven are the only legit powerhouses listed in all of these (I've got Page One below them per my perspective, which also matches how he fares against Luffy). Sanji is protected by plot armor. He isn't facing Katakuri or Oven in a climax fight. This is only "necessary drama". We don't downgrade Luffy or Zoro for taking the hit by Apoo. Lots of fans complain about the "weakening of Shounen protagonists", but it is necessary drama. This is why only climax fights reflect the true tier/ranking of combat capability. Sanji being able to catch someone off guard (Oven's fully concentrating on someone else) or Sanji not dying from Katakuri's sniping (pretty sure this is the point being referenced). And this is why the max damage Sanji can do and has been shown to do is less than what both Katakuri and Oven do. Oh, almost forgot: one moment of plot armor does not create "feats" to me. It's driven by plot armor and not Sanji's combat capabilities (I feel like Leandro here...). At least I don't hate plot armor I guess. So again, what is the peak damage Sanji has shown? I just realized that the Dressrosa split purposefully limits climax fights, but my whole point is that Sanji is not displaying the destructive power necessary to even defeat Pica.

Marco Polo

> what do I even mean by "league"? I was VERY close to writing out a tier list in my last post here but I restrained myself > Ah, OK. I'll leave this point as something that can go either way since Oda doesn't clarify which direction it goes. I don't think this can go either way. Aside from scars, and the obvious exception of Luffy during Marineford (who took an ungodly amount of damage) One Piece characters tend to recover from fights over a matter of days rather than weeks. If Page One is still visibly injured from his encounter with Sanji two weeks later, either he's got an incredibly weak body composition, or Sanji in his Raid Suit is even stronger than we've seen him to be. > . I am still curious about how you think Sanji fights Pica in Dressrosa. Jawa doesn't specify where, but most places have some percentage of stone in the ground for Pica to absorb and create a super form with. My evidence is the clear difference in peak combat capabilities shown. For me at least (I cannot speak for Jawa), the difficulty comes with area of effect of damage. Sanji's fighting style isn't one that has a large area of effect - his damage tends to be quite concentrated. > Sanji being able to have enough destructive power to break apart a stone giant The problem with arguing Sanji vs. Pica is that Sanji ultimately has to take a different approach to Zoro. Zoro has the option of taking his time and letting him absorb as much stone as he wants, since he can cut his way through and draw him out that way. Sanji would have to make use of Observation Haki to locate and draw Pica out, which becomes increasingly difficult as he absorbs more stone. I can sit here and say "well if Sanji uses the approach that's best suited to him, he'll win", but then that can be very easily countered by saying "but what if stone giant?", so I will simply highlight that it is a poor matchup in styles. I do think Sanji has difficulty in that fight but again it's purely a type matchup. In the final moment of the battle where Pica can no longer hide, then the conclusion is the same as Pica isn't very threatening without his fruit ability. It's the getting to that moment that takes a lot longer. > Perfect. This is exactly what I needed to read. So now I have to follow up on the Tobi Roppou. Do you see Page One as the same level as Sasaki and Black Maria? Right so my answer to the "Is Page One on the same level as Sasaki and Black Maria?" is "I don't know, because Sasaki and Black Maria haven't fought yet". There will be individual differences within the Tobi Roppou, of course there will, but at the moment saying "Page One is a level below Sasaki and Black Maria" is speculation and nothing more. > If not, this is just over-glorifying defeating a "Tobi Roppou" when there is a clear difference from the top and the bottom. What? Firstly, you not rating Page One is your problem, not mine. It's in black and white that he's one of the six strongest Headliners in Kaido's crew. Secondly, if you read the fight, you can see that Sanji is dominant throughout the encounter. Page One doesn't come anywhere close to doing damage. That's the biggest indication that he's ready to fight someone of a higher level. It's the nature of the win that makes you sit up and pay attention. > Sanji being able to catch someone off guard (Oven's fully concentrating on someone else) Okay, let me clarify that this is primarily a speed feat rather than a destructive capability feat. I think I referenced the chapter in our discussion in the Chapter 988 thread (it's somewhere in the 880s) but let me describe the chain of events. > Pound rushes in to attack Oven. > Oven drops Chiffon (who he's holding at shoulder height), and turns to attack Pound. > Chiffon starts falling. > Sanji weighs up the situation, and then moves to attack Oven > After landing his hit, he catches Chiffon just as her bum touches the ground. > Sanji then dashes out. Oven is, at most, 5 metres tall. Dropping Chiffon from shoulder height would mean she takes a fraction of a second to hit the ground. The entire encounter happens in less than half a second - that's the part that makes it impressive. > Oh, almost forgot: one moment of plot armor does not create "feats" to me. It's driven by plot armor and not Sanji's combat capabilities I'd argue movement speed falls under the umbrella of "combat capabilities"

seiryu

> Why would Oda hate any of his characters? And why would his hate be translated into "making character automatically weaker"? It's natural flow of life, ppl change, so does his characters, Sanji had many struggles as had all from the crew, so making him strong as Zoro, as many probably expected after the time skip, wouldn't be really that...enjoyable? Rather too predictable. He's more "human" than Zoro, Zoro is a beast who's main concern is getting stronger (sticking to his routine of drinking, training, sleeping over and over again), Sanji cooks, swoons over ladies, shops, tries to be gentleman (in a way XD) etc. and if he had ever actually trained, it was only at Kamabakka Kingdom, it's not really his aim, is it? To be stronger. I was actually always a bit amused, when OP fans always had to compare strenght of each of the Straw Hats. I think it varies according to the speciality of their opponent in general, or on their health and mental situation. So the same a x b fight may actually end up to have a completely different result in each of the particular moment, one has stronger believe, one trained more frequently, one actually understood his ability, one found a new move during the fight.... well, outcomes would be very numerous :) And I think Sanji might have some unnexpected moment of power up in the future, only Oda will show us that tho ^_^ If you wonder if I'm actually fan of Sanji after reading this post...no, not only, I love both of them the same <3 Kinda miss their fights tho I guess I'll give a spark notes version: Oda has many chances to have Sanji power up and be equals to Luffy, Zoro, and Jinbei. Sanji IS more emotional and "human" in that regards (WCI emphasizes this greatly), however, Sanji was ALWAYS an equal up until Kuma sending everyone to their perfect training spot. He is not "human" by his combat capabilities. The combat and mental "weakening" of Sanji is necessary (and everyone probably has a different bias on the level they want to see) for WCI to serve it's purpose. This is why Sanji is shown to be weaker than Luffy and Zoro after 3D2Y (based on context/plot). It does not have to be to the level Oda uses and 100% it does not have to continue after WCI. It is still going on in the anime. Oda is purposefully holding Sanji back, and I do not expect some sort of mind-blowing twist that needs Sanji to be weaker than the other powerhouses in the crew. Also, it is more styles/techniques that determines the match-up ease or difficulty. This 100% ties to the real world (more so than the mental health issue, which is resolved at the end of WCI anyway). The "hate" is delaying it, and also making the power level difference much bigger than it needed to be. The last part on missing their fighting directly ties to the whole point. Sanji will now lose to Zoro. It isn't a rivalry, despite Sanji having the higher bounty now. I love their petty rivalry, but I wouldn't want to see Zoro win just because Sanji was being screwed over by plot armor. I hope that helps. > I don't think this can go either way. Aside from scars, and the obvious exception of Luffy during Marineford (who took an ungodly amount of damage) One Piece characters tend to recover from fights over a matter of days rather than weeks. If Page One is still visibly injured from his encounter with Sanji two weeks later, either he's got an incredibly weak body composition, or Sanji in his Raid Suit is even stronger than we've seen him to be. Wait, the two week gap is why it can go either way. He could have been fine one minute later. He could have been fine one week later, or even the day of the fire festival. > The problem with arguing Sanji vs. Pica is that Sanji ultimately has to take a different approach to Zoro. Zoro has the option of taking his time and letting him absorb as much stone as he wants, since he can cut his way through and draw him out that way. Sanji would have to make use of Observation Haki to locate and draw Pica out, which becomes increasingly difficult as he absorbs more stone. I can sit here and say "well if Sanji uses the approach that's best suited to him, he'll win", but then that can be very easily countered by saying "but what if stone giant?", so I will simply highlight that it is a poor matchup in styles. I do think Sanji has difficulty in that fight but again it's purely a type matchup. In the final moment of the battle where Pica can no longer hide, then the conclusion is the same as Pica isn't very threatening without his fruit ability. It's the getting to that moment that takes a lot longer. K, I'm kinda tired of running in circles. I specifically read how you acknowledged Zoro is stronger than Sanji based on the feats displayed. That is the entire basis of this thread in that Sanji is not living up to his previously established role and it is excessively going on based on all of the potential points of powering up Sanji (vs. continuing to have him not live up to the feats Luffy, Zoro, and Jinbei display). Because it could have been ended even before WCI (yes, I understand your perspective on wanting the greater impact for WCI), but we've already both agreed on the various instances after for Sanji to have the power-up occur. Why is Sanji the only one staying stagnant? I have to assume you think Luffy and Jinbei do not have an issue with Pica's ultimate form.> What? Firstly, you not rating Page One is your problem, not mine. It's in black and white that he's one of the six strongest Headliners in Kaido's crew. Secondly, if you read the fight, you can see that Sanji is dominant throughout the encounter. Page One doesn't come anywhere close to doing damage. That's the biggest indication that he's ready to fight someone of a higher level. It's the nature of the win that makes you sit up and pay attention. So I'm imagining Sanji being surprised at him taking zero damage from the attack(s) Page One lands in his half-transformation form? Yes, I 100% know I said I wanted Sanji to completely dominate Page One and acknowledged that in the chapter discussion. The "feats" are clearly of a different level, and you've said so yourself. I'm mad at Oda for making the difference in "feats" be astronomically longer than it needed to. For your perspective, it is much shorter because you want Sanji to be at a different level from Ichiji and Niji (based on the chapter discussion part). Hopefully this bridges the last/main perspective difference since it looks like most of the smaller ones on both sides got cleared up already.> Okay, let me clarify that this is primarily a speed feat rather than a destructive capability feat. I think I referenced the chapter in our discussion in the Chapter 988 thread (it's somewhere in the 880s) but let me describe the chain of events. > Pound rushes in to attack Oven. > Oven drops Chiffon (who he's holding at shoulder height), and turns to attack Pound. > Chiffon starts falling. > Sanji weighs up the situation, and then moves to attack Oven > After landing his hit, he catches Chiffon just as her bum touches the ground. > Sanji then dashes out. Oven is, at most, 5 metres tall. Dropping Chiffon from shoulder height would mean she takes a fraction of a second to hit the ground. The entire encounter happens in less than half a second - that's the part that makes it impressive. ... I'd argue movement speed falls under the umbrella of "combat capabilities" Yes of course, and Doffy specifically commented on Luffy's speed in Gear Second. Speed without the power behind it doesn't do anything. So again, by your own admission, Sanji cannot match the feats of Luffy and Zoro and now Jinbei. This is why it's B.S. to me. You don't have to consider it B.S., nor do I have any intention of trying to do so. I just wanted to bridge the perspective gap and I kept reading a denial of the difference. It took Jawa's response to get it, but essentially that's all I needed to read. I can keep dancing in circles, but all the context points in one direction. So I'm glad I posted this since the majority of votes agree with you and being content with the power level difference. To each their own.

weebywitch

Tis been a busy few days so here’s a response to this... > We don't need to know how Sanji feels about the Germa in order to know how effectively he might use the Raid Suit. In point of fact, we actually still don't really know where he's at in terms of achieving inner peace with them, since he was reluctant to use the Raid Suit in the first place because of his grudge with them. We have no reason to believe that this hesitation to first activate the suit has in any way held back his use of it, and thus we can ignore his current mental status regarding Germa when analysing how the Raid Suit will affect his ability in combat. Really? In point of fact, he clearly states when the raid suit is discovered in chapter 903 that he’s not in Germa so he won’t use it and that neither Germa 66 nor the name Vinsmoke should be mentioned ever again. Then, when he does actually decide to use it, against Page 1, he states that, if it can help someone, then it’s worth swallowing his pride to try it even if it’s the stupid Germa tech. He reiterates during the fight that he hates Germa and isn’t one of them—once the usefulness of it is proven, he notes that he’s going to need to have the design changed. So what we do know is that he’s determined that he doesn’t need to let his pride and disdain for them get in the way of accepting the benefits of their scientific technology in terms of the benefits that it can provide to furthering his goals and ideals. He’s determined that he can remain himself while taking what he wants/needs from them on his terms. That’s what he basically says in the chapters where the Raid Suit and its use is discussed. > To clarify: I don't consider Sanji's relationship with Ivankov/Newkama peeps when analysing his use of Sky Walk. I don't consider Nami's relationship with the people of Weatheria when analysing her use of the new Clima Tact. I don't consider Zoro's relationship with Mihawk when analysing his use of Haki. I don't consider Luffy's relationship with Rayleigh when I analyse his Conqueror's Haki. And I don't consider Sanji's relationship with Germa when I analyse his use of the Raid Suit.In Sanji’s case, I’d say that’s a failing/misstep since the sky walk/hell memories were developed as a direct result of the emotional state and definitely required the initial emotional state to activate them so there’s a mental link/shortcut most likely present in him that relates to it. The other two examples are fallacious analogies, in my opinion. Both Nami’s and Chopper’s experiences were characterized in preponderance by a focus on the methodical scientific study and acquisition of data, techniques, tools and skills. Thus there wasn’t any emotional linkage to be found there. When Luffy was training, from what was shown, there weren’t any overtly emotional scenes. So, while the basis for his training was emotionally based-as is his entire journey, it’s not that the time with Rayleigh was particularly emotional, thus it wouldn’t evoke a response/attachment—not like the death of Ace or other major events in Luffy’s life. Zoro and emotionality do not particularly mix in the first place so while his plea to Mihawk may have seemed emotional, due to both of their natures, I doubt there was much in the way of emotion to be found during the training period. > I know I'm sounding a bit dismissive here, but I feel like it'd be a pretty big deviation from the current subject matter (since we'd be discussing far more abstract things than Sanji and Oda), and I'd probably need a few thousand words to lay out this point that honestly just seems intuitive to me.This section highlights the fundamental differences in our views on this. For me, this is discussing Oda and Sanji. The things being brought up are ones that Oda has spent a great deal of time and attention putting in the story. So to ignore them is to ignore his work. After all, why else would Oda take such care to show how much derision exists between Germa and Sanji as well as Sanji and the Okama? Hell memories is literally based on such derision. Sky walk is born off him using it to flee and he’ll memories is it manifested in flames.

angellucy

> I guess I'll give a spark notes version: Oda has many chances to have Sanji power up and be equals to Luffy, Zoro, and Jinbei. Sanji IS more emotional and "human" in that regards (WCI emphasizes this greatly), however, Sanji was ALWAYS an equal up until Kuma sending everyone to their perfect training spot. He is not "human" by his combat capabilities. The combat and mental "weakening" of Sanji is necessary (and everyone probably has a different bias on the level they want to see) for WCI to serve it's purpose. This is why Sanji is shown to be weaker than Luffy and Zoro after 3D2Y (based on context/plot). It does not have to be to the level Oda uses and 100% it does not have to continue after WCI. It is still going on in the anime. Oda is purposefully holding Sanji back, and I do not expect some sort of mind-blowing twist that needs Sanji to be weaker than the other powerhouses in the crew. Also, it is more styles/techniques that determines the match-up ease or difficulty. This 100% ties to the real world (more so than the mental health issue, which is resolved at the end of WCI anyway). The "hate" is delaying it, and also making the power level difference much bigger than it needed to be. The last part on missing their fighting directly ties to the whole point. Sanji will now lose to Zoro. It isn't a rivalry, despite Sanji having the higher bounty now. I love their petty rivalry, but I wouldn't want to see Zoro win just because Sanji was being screwed over by plot armor. I hope that helps. The whole post you wrote only points out you want Sanji to be strong and blame Oda, who somehow punishes his character by turning him weaker. Did Oda ever said, he hates Sanji? Where did it even came from, it's just a complaining of Sanji fan, who doesn't support Sanji's current situation. But I think in general Sanji often struggles in his fights through out the whole series, not only now, and for me the struggle itself is admirable, might be horrible for Sanji, I hate it too, him being in pinch frequently, but it's part of his life story and I never said there will be some plot twist to change him into powerhouse... I think Sanji has plenty of time to grow and only bcs it's not right now doesn't mean there won't be any developement at all....but we have to reconsider the story developement itself, it's getting complicated and Oda can't resolve and keep an eye on his every character, he needs to go on with the main plot twists....what about Robin, Nami, Franky, Chopper? Where is their developement? -_- (again, not up to date, I'm still at the start of Wano arc) But I think this is very biased and I wouldn't pay it mind so much being you, it will be resolved, when the time is right, believe in Oda a bit ;) But I feel with you, it makes me angry too :/

Marco Polo

> That is the entire basis of this thread Firstly, I’d just like to make it clear that throughout the debates we’ve been having over the past week or so, my argument has always been “Sanji and Zoro are in the same tier”. There’s individual differences within tiers, but the difference isn’t astronomical. Obviously, you think the difference is more significant than I do, which is fine. Secondly, the impression I got from your posts is that your issue is with the supposed widening of the Zoro-Sanji gap and Sanji no longer being an important fighter in the crew, rather than Zoro being stronger than Sanji. My arguments are based around the idea that a) Sanji is still strong enough to be competitive, b) the gap in strength isn’t as wide as you think, and c) and that it’s just a matter of time before Sanji proves himself in a way that’s impossible to ignore. > I have to assume you think Luffy and Jinbei do not have an issue with Pica's ultimate form. Luffy - no. King Kong Gun probably does the job. Jinbe - Actually, maybe. Even though I currently have him down as second strongest Straw Hat by a distance (he’s the only one that keeps up with G4 Luffy), Fishman Karate isn’t a great matchup for Pica. Have you heard of the phrase “it’s like drawing water from a stone?” I think it applies here. There’s limited water for him to manipulate. As you say, styles make fights. > I'm mad at Oda for making the difference in "feats" be astronomically longer than it needed to. To tie this back into your “if I was a Sanji fan I’d be mad about this” thoughts, it’s more about trusting the process. Had Sanji not gotten the shine he did in WCI, then I agree that it’s an issue. As cheesy as it sounds, there’s no point where I’ve thought “yeah OK Sanji is done as a fighter”, which would be the only scenario where I’d agree with the main sentiment of your argument. The feats are coming, and there’s no rush.

seiryu

> Really? In point of fact, he clearly states when the raid suit is discovered in chapter 903 that he’s not in Germa so he won’t use it and that neither Germa 66 nor the name Vinsmoke should be mentioned ever again. Then, when he does actually decide to use it, against Page 1, he states that, if it can help someone, then it’s worth swallowing his pride to try it even if it’s the stupid Germa tech. Eventually, I might go back to the raw for 903 because there was something implying willingness in that chapter. This is why the fight against Page One was such a huge letdown for me.> Did Oda ever said, he hates Sanji? Articles, blogs, posts, etc. of any kind need "attention grabbers". It isn't meant to be literal. Maybe it's a language difference, but the slang use of "hate" is equivalent to "shade" or "dissing someone". It isn't the literal definition of hate. Thus the "hating" usage and not "Why does Oda hate Sanji". Maybe this aspect is part of the negative bias by Sanji fans, but there is a clear distinction between hating vs. hate to me. > might be horrible for Sanji, I hate it too, him being in pinch frequently, but it's part of his life story and I never said there will be some plot twist to change him into powerhouse... I think we are on the same page for everything, but just to be sure, you would want to see Sanji return to his previous role as an equal to the other powerhouses of the crew right? The short-term answer is easy since Sanji just has to become proficient with the Raid Suit, and this happens (hopefully) at the end of his climax fight in Wano Kuni. I personally, want him to be at this level without the Raid Suit....WAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT. Marco Polo too. Vegapunk can unlock this for him!!! Vegapunk is better at science than everyone, so he can figure out what is"wrong". Sanji will hate the idea at first, but he'll like the dramatic power up. Maybe there is a positive twist at the end of this! > Oda can't resolve and keep an eye on his every character, he needs to go on with the main plot twists....what about Robin, Nami, Franky, Chopper? Where is their developement? I think you are astronomically underestimating Oda. He plans out EVERYTHING in his notebooks for every arc. Plus, he already knows the main plot points because the entire series was supposed to finish in 5 years. > But I think this is very biased and I wouldn't pay it mind so much being you, it will be resolved, when the time is right, believe in Oda a bit ;) But I feel with you, it makes me angry too :/ No worries, and thanks for sure! Biggest thing is that I think I can at least see one option on a positive twist that makes all of this previous B.S. necessary. It isn't B.S. if Vegapunk fixes it all. I'm glad I started the thread, because it let me know the mindset of the Sanji fans here. I'm super eccentric, so maybe that's why I wouldn't respond the same way if I was a Sanji fan. To each their own. > Firstly, I’d just like to make it clear that throughout the debates we’ve been having over the past week or so, my argument has always been “Sanji and Zoro are in the same tier”. There’s individual differences within tiers, but the difference isn’t astronomical. Obviously, you think the difference is more significant than I do, which is fine. Secondly, the impression I got from your posts is that your issue is with the supposed widening of the Zoro-Sanji gap and Sanji no longer being an important fighter in the crew, rather than Zoro being stronger than Sanji. My arguments are based around the idea that a) Sanji is still strong enough to be competitive, b) the gap in strength isn’t as wide as you think, and c) and that it’s just a matter of time before Sanji proves himself in a way that’s impossible to ignore. Yes, exactly. So the Wano Kuni action is going to resolve all of this. I feel like I understand both sides, so it's up to you if you want to downplay the comments, facial expressions, and "feat" difference. I do want to follow up on Zoro, Luffy, and Sanji (or at least Zoro and Sanji) being in the same tier. How much of Pica's ultimate form do you think Sanji could destroy? Speed is essential to fighting (the cliche speed kills is true for real life martial arts since the ability to land is further amplified by being able to dodge and parry). Sanji appears to have an astronomical difference in power to me. I didn't see a counter argument to his attack on Wadatsumi. Both the density, size, and most important aspect of level of opponent is all very different. I probably should go on this tangent: I can completely understand the perspective of having a favorite character "attacked". It is very clear you can proceed without what reads like blatant denial of counterarguments (that's the way it reads to me and why I've only gotten more and more irritated with this implied perspective of insisting Sanji is completely equal to Zoro, Luffy, and Jinbei). It looks like we bridged most of the gaps and understand the other's perspectives. I'm super curious on "destructive power". The ultimate example is Doffy. He says so directly to Luffy that even the power of Gear Second is essentially only a mosquito bite. Sanji is only doing this level of attack with Diable Jambe per my bias. I do not see Sanji being able to significantly damage Yonkou execs. This matches Sanji only matching Katakuri and Oven when plot armor necessitates him to. I will keep referring to it, but Sanji's max damage has not changed much and that is the proof of the gap difference and this completely matches the difference in "feats". > Jinbe - Actually, maybe. Even though I currently have him down as second strongest Straw Hat by a distance (he’s the only one that keeps up with G4 Luffy), Fishman Karate isn’t a great matchup for Pica. Have you heard of the phrase “it’s like drawing water from a stone?” I think it applies here. There’s limited water for him to manipulate. As you say, styles make fights. I only have one thing to reference for Jinbei: his early strikes are based on the number of stone tiles he breaks in a karate strike. A non-power strike was already in the thousands. He doesn't need the water manipulation of the opponents body. His attack on Big Mom is the perfect example of how he uses water to further enhance his already monster level strength.. Jinbei throws a power strike and has the exact same damage as Zoro. It is all skill and the water exaggeration (ah, a good analogy is how Natsu uses fire to "boost" his attacks since the same mechanics are being applied). Jinbei wins easily too since peak combat capabilities are consistent. Sanji is not changing and that is the whole point. Ah, how much do you think Sanji's "destructive power" increased since 3D2Y? This might be an even better question. The ratios/amounts for Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are not the same and from what I'm reading you acknowledge this and I'm just trying to quantify this because the feats are very different. Yes, part of this is not having climax fights, but that is probably on purpose as well.> To tie this back into your “if I was a Sanji fan I’d be mad about this” thoughts, it’s more about trusting the process. Had Sanji not gotten the shine he did in WCI, then I agree that it’s an issue. As cheesy as it sounds, there’s no point where I’ve thought “yeah OK Sanji is done as a fighter”, which would be the only scenario where I’d agree with the main sentiment of your argument. The feats are coming, and there’s no rush. So I think I'll tag you in the above part just in case. Yes, I already agreed 100% that it likely stops with the climax action of Wano Kuni. Do you think 2-5 years of manga content is a long time? I don't want to look up how long it has been, but that's a damn long time for me. Again, to each their own, but I'm completely blown away at the passive mindset of all of the Sanji fans voting. Great to be patient, and I'm willing to be patient on stuff related to the main plot. Unless Vegapunk is going to bridge the gap (or some twist similar to this), then it is unnecessary to me.

Marco Polo

> I personally, want him to be at this level without the Raid Suit....WAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT. @Marco Polo too. Vegapunk can unlock this for him!!! Vegapunk is better at science than everyone, so he can figure out what is"wrong". Sanji will hate the idea at first, but he'll like the dramatic power up. Are you implying Vegapunk can activate the exoskeleton genes that Judge implanted in Sanji? I have two issues with that. 1. The implication from his backstory is that Sanji doesn’t have those genes at all. They could be dormant, but I got the impression that Judge’s modifications were completely reversed. 2. I think Sanji accepting that powerup goes against his character. Having a suit you can take on and off is one thing, but to have a permanent reminder of a family you’ve disowned is another. It’d also suggest a disregard for his mother’s life - a life she sacrificed to give him a chance of being human. > How much of Pica's ultimate form do you think Sanji could destroy? Honestly, he could probably destroy all of it but it takes him significantly longer. It’d be several minutes of kicking. > Ah, how much do you think Sanji's "destructive power" increased since 3D2Y? This might be an even better question. The ratios/amounts for Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are not the same and from what I'm reading you acknowledge this and I'm just trying to quantify this because the feats are very different. Yes, part of this is not having climax fights, but that is probably on purpose as well. It’s very difficult to quantify but I’d say “a lot” - at Return to Sabaody, his level of growth is implied to be similar to Zoro’s (based on the fact they both managed to deliver knockout blows to the Pacifista). > that's the way it reads to me and why I've only gotten more and more irritated with this implied perspective of insisting Sanji is completely equal to Zoro, Luffy, and Jinbei Again, to make things clear: Luffy > Jinbe > Zoro > Sanji Is the current strength hierarchy within the crew. This could (and probably will) change by the end of Wano, provided Zoro and Sanji each manage to take down an All Star. > Again, to each their own, but I'm completely blown away at the passive mindset of all of the Sanji fans voting. Well I think it comes down to the fact that Sanji’s always been about more than just fighting. He was recruited as a cook, who just so happened to be as strong as the two powerhouses. The fact he’s had great character moments outside of combat growth definitely helps. I presume part of your confusion comes from, “well if Oda did this to Zoro I’d be furious”, which is fair enough. But then you have to consider Zoro’s entire character arc revolves around getting stronger and beating the next strong guy; Sanji’s never has and never will.